🚀 go-pugleaf

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> When I locate and repost Zod's statement, we can take it from there.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> Been there.  Don't care.

So you admit that you're just trolling.

HTH and HAND.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.
>>
>> No wonder you dropped that thread.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> I dropped the thread because

Because you know you're wrong but don't want to admit it?

We know.

🙂

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 4:25:17 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> >> as pathological
>
> > Ignorant idiots...
> Exactly...!

Unfortunately.

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 12:05:14 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> >> By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.
> >>
> >> No wonder you dropped that thread.
> >>
> >> HTH and HAND.
> > I dropped the thread because
>
> Because you know you're wrong but don't want to admit it?
>
> We know.

We know that:

1) Ginsberg was a homosexual,
2) Ginsberg was a member of NAMBLA,
3) Ginsberg wrote about how he found adolescent boys attractive,
4) Ginsberg had several sexual partners who were in their teens.

From this one can conclude that:

1) any Ginsberg poem that *can* be interpreted along pedophilic lines, *should* be interpreted along pedophilic lines;
2) and as "Please Master" can easily be interpreted along pedophilic lines,
3) it *should* be interpreted along pedophilic lines.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>
>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, Pendragon.

> Says the

No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

HTH and HAND.

No, multiple sources have stated that "Please Master"was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, who was about the same age as Ginsberg.

HTH and HAND.

Will Dockery wrote:

> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>
>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, Pendragon.

>> Says the

> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

> HTH and HAND.


For example.............
Detailing the homosexual relationship between himself and on-off lover Neal Cassady, Please Master could be described as a juxtaposition of explicit sexuality and innocent adoration. Free-verse in form, it was written following Cassady’s death in 1964. Their affair spanned a period of at least 20 years and was considered the driving force behind much of Ginsberg’s most sexually charged works. It has been suggested that Ginsberg eventually realised that Cassady would never love him the way that he needed to be loved. Their relationship has been described as sexually and emotionally ‘abusive’ by Ginsberg, and by others that knew them, and there is strong indication of this in Please Master. First, the fact that Ginsberg refers to his lover as ‘master’ throughout the poem immediately indicates that he is submissive to a more dominant figure *************************************
****************

Michael Pendragon wrote:

>
> When over the course of the past 50 years, has poetry been a major artistic, cultural, literary, or popular force?

Hip Hop, rap and spoken word slam poetry, for starters.

On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 5:40:20 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:43:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> You've yet to show any pedophile imagery in the poem, Pendragon.
> >>
> >> > Why does the speaker address his sexual partner as "Master,"
> >> Look it up........:
> >>
> >> ***********************************************************************
> >>
> >> https://www.beatdom.com/many-loves/

"Neal Cassady often took on a larger than life persona in much of the Beat literature. ‘Please Master’ is one of the most graphically written works by Ginsberg about his relationship with Neal Cassady. Ginsberg portrays sadomasochistic sexuality precisely as a symbolic relationship, with language, too, that is ironic in its erotic affirmation of the master’s dominance and slave’s submission. In ‘Please Master’ Cassady seems self-evidently the controlling master having his way with a submissive Ginsberg. However a closer reading of the poem dramatizes sexual activity that, of course, would not occur without the person in the slave subject position initiating intercourse..."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

For those who missed this the first time, such as Michael Pendragon.

HTH and HAND.

Zod wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:

>> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, Pendragon.

>>> Says the

>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

>> HTH and HAND.


> For example.............
> Detailing the homosexual relationship between himself and on-off lover Neal Cassady, Please Master could be described as a juxtaposition of explicit sexuality and innocent adoration. Free-verse in form, it was written following Cassady’s death in 1964. Their affair spanned a period of at least 20 years and was considered the driving force behind much of Ginsberg’s most sexually charged works. It has been suggested that Ginsberg eventually realised that Cassady would never love him the way that he needed to be loved. Their relationship has been described as sexually and emotionally ‘abusive’ by Ginsberg, and by others that knew them, and there is strong indication of this in Please Master. First, the fact that Ginsberg refers to his lover as ‘master’ throughout the poem immediately indicates that he is submissive to a more dominant figure *************************************
> ****************

No doubt Michael Pendragon will pretend not to see that.

🙂

General-Zod wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it 
>>>>
>>> as pathological
>
>> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.
>
> sad but true...!

Except for Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry, of course.

🙂

Will Dockery wrote:

> General-Zod wrote:
>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>>>
>>>> as pathological
>>
>>> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.
>>
>> sad but true...!

> Except for Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry, of course.

> 🙂

You nailed it....

General-Zod wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.

> That is indeed apparently true....


Pendragon misses a lot since he's constantly looking to the distant past for poetry.

Will Dockery wrote:

> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>
>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, Pendragon.

>> Says the

> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

> HTH and HAND.

That pretty much says it all....

Will Dockery wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:43:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> >> >> You've yet to show any pedophile imagery in the poem, Pendragon.
>> >>
>> >> > Why does the speaker address his sexual partner as "Master,"
>> >> Look it up........:
>> >>
>> >> ***********************************************************************
>> >>
>> >> https://www.beatdom.com/many-loves/

> "Neal Cassady often took on a larger than life persona in much of the Beat literature. ‘Please Master’ is one of the most graphically written works by Ginsberg about his relationship with Neal Cassady. Ginsberg portrays sadomasochistic sexuality precisely as a symbolic relationship, with language, too, that is ironic in its erotic affirmation of the master’s dominance and slave’s submission. In ‘Please Master’ Cassady seems self-evidently the controlling master having his way with a submissive Ginsberg. However a closer reading of the poem dramatizes sexual activity that, of course, would not occur without the person in the slave subject position initiating intercourse..."

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> For those who missed this the first time, such as Michael Pendragon.

> HTH and HAND.


Yep... the final word I suspect......

General-Zod wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>>>>
>>>>> as pathological
>>>
>>>> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.
>>>
>>> sad but true...!

>> Except for Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry, of course.

>>

> You nailed it....


Good evening my friend, just calling it as I see it.

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.

The emergence of rap changed history...

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.

> The emergence of rap changed history...


Hip Hop brought back both rhyme and popularity to poetry.

And so it goes.

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> > On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:43:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>>> >> >> You've yet to show any pedophile imagery in the poem, Pendragon.
>>> >>
>>> >> > Why does the speaker address his sexual partner as "Master,"
>>> >> Look it up........:
>>> >>
>>> >> ***********************************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.beatdom.com/many-loves/

>> "Neal Cassady often took on a larger than life persona in much of the Beat literature. ‘Please Master’ is one of the most graphically written works by Ginsberg about his relationship with Neal Cassady. Ginsberg portrays sadomasochistic sexuality precisely as a symbolic relationship, with language, too, that is ironic in its erotic affirmation of the master’s dominance and slave’s submission. In ‘Please Master’ Cassady seems self-evidently the controlling master having his way with a submissive Ginsberg. However a closer reading of the poem dramatizes sexual activity that, of course, would not occur without the person in the slave subject position initiating intercourse..."

>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Yep... the final word I suspect......

Yes, it's generally agreed by most Allen Ginsberg readers that the poem was written for a grown man, Neal Cassady.

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>>>>
>>>>> as pathological

>>>> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

>>> Good thing that Hip Hop and Rap poetry are thriving now....

>> Part of the big changes in poetry of the 1980s and 1990s.

>>

> Indeed so...!

As has been well established here by now.

Will Dockery wrote:

> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>
>> as pathological

> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

Sadly enough...

Zod wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> Zod wrote:
>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> > Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>>> >> >> You've yet to show any pedophile imagery in the poem, Pendragon.
>>> >>
>>> >> > Why does the speaker address his sexual partner as "Master,"
>>> >> Look it up........:
>>> >>
>>> >> ***********************************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.beatdom.com/many-loves/

>> "Neal Cassady often took on a larger than life persona in much of the Beat literature. ‘Please Master’ is one of the most graphically written works by Ginsberg about his relationship with Neal Cassady. Ginsberg portrays sadomasochistic sexuality precisely as a symbolic relationship, with language, too, that is ironic in its erotic affirmation of the master’s dominance and slave’s submission. In ‘Please Master’ Cassady seems self-evidently the controlling master having his way with a submissive Ginsberg. However a closer reading of the poem dramatizes sexual activity that, of course, would not occur without the person in the slave subject position initiating intercourse..."

>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> For those who missed this the first time, such as Michael Pendragon.

>> HTH and HAND.


> Yep... the final word I suspect......

I think it finally is.

🙂

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_(culture)

> ************* Hip hop or hip-hop is a culture and art movement that was created by African Americans, Latino Americans and Caribbean Americans in the Bronx, New York City. The origin of the name is often disputed. It is also argued as to whether hip hop started in the South or West Bronx.[1][2][3][4][5] While the term hip hop is often used to refer exclusively to hip hop music (including rap),[6] hip hop is characterized by four key elements: "rapping" (also called MCing or emceeing), a rhythmic vocal rhyming style (orality); DJing (and turntablism), which is the practice of making music with record players and DJ mixers (aural/sound and music creation); b-boying/b-girling/breakdancing (movement/dance); and graffiti.[7][2][8][9][10]

> Other elements are: hip hop culture and historical knowledge of the movement (intellectual/philosophical); beatboxing, a percussive vocal style; street entrepreneurship; hip hop language; and hip hop fashion and style, among others.[11][12][13] The fifth element, although debated, is commonly considered either street knowledge, hip hop fashion, or beatboxing.[2][7]

> The Bronx hip hop scene emerged in the mid-1970s  *************************************


Good find.

Zod wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:

>> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, Pendragon.

>>> Says the

>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

>> HTH and HAND.


> For example.............
> Detailing the homosexual relationship between himself and on-off lover Neal Cassady, Please Master could be described as a juxtaposition of explicit sexuality and innocent adoration. Free-verse in form, it was written following Cassady’s death in 1964. Their affair spanned a period of at least 20 years and was considered the driving force behind much of Ginsberg’s most sexually charged works. It has been suggested that Ginsberg eventually realised that Cassady would never love him the way that he needed to be loved. Their relationship has been described as sexually and emotionally ‘abusive’ by Ginsberg, and by others that knew them, and there is strong indication of this in Please Master. First, the fact that Ginsberg refers to his lover as ‘master’ throughout the poem immediately indicates that he is submissive to a more dominant figure *************************************
> ****************

Lest we forget.

:)