🚀 go-pugleaf

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 4:55:14 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> >> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
> >
> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> >>>
> >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > Zod wrote:
> >>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
> >>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> >>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
> >>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> >>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> >>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
> >>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
> >>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
> >>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
> >>>
> >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> >>> >> which I did the same.
> >>>
> >>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> >>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> >>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
> >>>
> >>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> >>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> >>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> >>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
> >>>
> >>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> >>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> >>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> >>> >> for them.
> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> >>> >>> later years.
> >>>
> >>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> >>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> >>> >> influence on your doing that.
> >>>
> >>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
> >>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
> >>>
> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> >>>
> >>> HTH and HAND.
>
> >> AGAIN:
>
> >>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>
> > No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:
>
> > George J. Dance:
> >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > And:
>
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >> which I did the same.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> Pen is not thinking this through....
>
> 1) Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970's... so...
>
> 2) I could NOT have been referring to something that happened many years before that.....

That isn't the way context works, Zod.

Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970s... so... your sentence, which places it *contextually* in the early 1900s, doesn't make any sense.

Sure, I can say "Zod must be referring to the late 1970s," but that isn't going to change the actual meaning of your sentence.

If you want to be a writer, you *need* to understand how language works.

Zod was referring to the rise of the Hip hop poetry movement, which really began to catch on in the 1980s and 1990s.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
>>
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Zod wrote:
>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >>>>>>> [...]
>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >>>>>>> [...]
>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>> >>>
>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
>>
>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>> >> which I did the same.
>>
>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
>>
>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
>>
>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
>> >> for them.
>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> >>> later years.
>>
>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>> >> influence on your doing that.
>>
>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
>>
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> AGAIN:

>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:

George J. Dance:
>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And:

George J. Dance wrote:
>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> >> which I did the same.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 9:37:49 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Zod was referring to the rise of the Hip hop poetry movement, which really began to catch on in the 1980s and 1990s.

Yes, Donkey.  I've said that about thirty times now.

But what he actually wrote is *not* what he intended to say.

WORDS MATTER.

You *cannot* be a writer if you don't understand how words work.

Will Dockery wrote:

> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
>
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
>>>
>>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Zod wrote:
>>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>> >>>>>>> [...]
>>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>> >>>>>>> [...]
>>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
>>>
>>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>>> >> which I did the same.
>>>
>>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
>>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
>>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
>>>
>>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
>>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
>>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
>>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
>>>
>>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
>>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
>>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
>>> >> for them.
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>>> >>> later years.
>>>
>>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>>> >> influence on your doing that.
>>>
>>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
>>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
>>>
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
>>>
>>> HTH and HAND.

>> AGAIN:

>>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

> No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:

> George J. Dance:
>>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> And:

> George J. Dance wrote:
>>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>> >> which I did the same.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

Pen is not thinking this through....

1) Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970's... so...

2) I could NOT have been referring to something that happened many years before that.....

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 11:25:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
> >>
> >> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> > half of the last century.
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
> >> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> >> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> >> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> >> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> >> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
> >>
> >> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> >>
> >> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
> >>
> >> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.
>
> > Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things
>
> Not really, as explained earlier.

Yes, really.

Words have meanings.

Denying their meanings won't make them go away.

It's high time you man up and *learn* them.

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 12:09:28 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 11:25:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
> > >>
> > >> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >> > half of the last century.
> > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >>
> > >> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
> > >> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> > >> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> > >> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> > >> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > >> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
> > >>
> > >> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> > >>
> > >> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
> > >>
> > >> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.
> >
> > > Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things
> >
> > Not really, as explained earlier.
> Yes, really.
>
> Words have meanings.
>
> Denying their meanings won't make them go away.
>
> It's high time you man up and *learn* them.


I'm not sure the neurons in Dockery's brain, or whatever passes for it, are capable of doing that.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >
>> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
>>
>> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > half of the last century.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
>> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
>> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>>
>> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
>>
>> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
>>
>> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.

> Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things

Not really, as explained earlier.

🙂

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 11:25:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
>> >>
>> >> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> > half of the last century.
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>
>> >> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
>> >> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> >> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> >> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
>> >> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>> >> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >>
>> >> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
>> >>
>> >> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
>> >>
>> >> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.
>>
>> > Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things
>>
>> Not really, as explained earlier.

> Yes, really.

No, as has been explained to you.

HTH and HAND.

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 3:45:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 11:25:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
> >> >>
> >> >> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >> > half of the last century.
> >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >>
> >> >> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
> >> >> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> >> >> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> >> >> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> >> >> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> >> >> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
> >> >>
> >> >> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
> >> >>
> >> >> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.
> >>
> >> > Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things
> >>
> >> Not really, as explained earlier.
>
> > Yes, really.
> No, as has been explained to you.
>
> HTH and HAND.

Words, Donkey.  Words, words, words.

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 4:55:14 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> >> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
> >
> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> >>>
> >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > Zod wrote:
> >>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
> >>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> >>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
> >>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> >>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> >>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
> >>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
> >>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
> >>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
> >>>
> >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> >>> >> which I did the same.
> >>>
> >>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> >>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> >>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
> >>>
> >>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> >>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> >>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> >>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
> >>>
> >>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> >>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> >>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> >>> >> for them.
> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> >>> >>> later years.
> >>>
> >>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> >>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> >>> >> influence on your doing that.
> >>>
> >>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
> >>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
> >>>
> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> >>>
> >>> HTH and HAND.
>
> >> AGAIN:
>
> >>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>
> > No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:
>
> > George J. Dance:
> >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > And:
>
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> >> which I did the same.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> Pen is not thinking this through....
>
> 1) Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970's... so...
>
> 2) I could NOT have been referring to something that happened many years before that.....

Pendragon doesn't understand what you're talking about, so he doesn't want to accept it.

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 1:47:24 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 4:55:14 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > >> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
> > >
> > >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> > >>>
> > >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> > Zod wrote:
> > >>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > >>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > >>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> > >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> > >>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
> > >>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> > >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> > >>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> > >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> > >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> > >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> > >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> > >>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
> > >>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
> > >>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
> > >>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
> > >>>
> > >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> > >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> > >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> > >>> >> which I did the same.
> > >>>
> > >>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> > >>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> > >>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
> > >>>
> > >>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> > >>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> > >>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> > >>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
> > >>>
> > >>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> > >>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> > >>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> > >>> >> for them.
> > >>>
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> > >>> >>> later years.
> > >>>
> > >>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> > >>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> > >>> >> influence on your doing that.
> > >>>
> > >>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
> > >>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
> > >>>
> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>
> > >>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> > >>>
> > >>> HTH and HAND.
> >
> > >> AGAIN:
> >
> > >>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
> >
> > > No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:
> >
> > > George J. Dance:
> > >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> > >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> > >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > > And:
> >
> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> > >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > >>> >> which I did the same.
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > >>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> > Pen is not thinking this through....
> >
> > 1) Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970's... so...
> >
> > 2) I could NOT have been referring to something that happened many years before that.....
> Pendragon doesn't understand what you're talking about, so he doesn't want to accept it.

IKYABWAI will not make Zod's sentence any more intelligible.

Learning how to write properly will.

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 2:36:20 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 1:47:24 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 4:55:14 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Will Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > >> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
> > > >
> > > >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> > Zod wrote:
> > > >>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > > >>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > > >>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
> > > >>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >>> >>>>>>
> > > >>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> > > >>> >>>>>
> > > >>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> > > >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> > > >>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
> > > >>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> > > >>> >>>>>>> [...]
> > > >>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> > > >>> >>>>>>>
> > > >>> >>>>>
> > > >>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
> > > >>> >>>>>
> > > >>> >>>>>
> > > >>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> > > >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> > > >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> > > >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> > > >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> > > >>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
> > > >>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
> > > >>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
> > > >>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> > > >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> > > >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> > > >>> >> which I did the same.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> > > >>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> > > >>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> > > >>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> > > >>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> > > >>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> > > >>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> > > >>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> > > >>> >> for them.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >>>
> > > >>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> > > >>> >>> later years.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> > > >>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> > > >>> >> influence on your doing that.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
> > > >>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
> > > >>>
> > > >>> HTH and HAND.
> > >
> > > >> AGAIN:
> > >
> > > >>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
> > >
> > > > No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:
> > >
> > > > George J. Dance:
> > > >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> > > >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> > > >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > > And:
> > >
> > > > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> > > >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > >>> >> which I did the same.
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > >>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> > > Pen is not thinking this through....
> > >
> > > 1) Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970's... so...
> > >
> > > 2) I could NOT have been referring to something that happened many years before that.....
> > Pendragon doesn't understand what you're talking about, so he doesn't want to accept it.
> IKYABWAI will not make Zod's sentence any more intelligible.
>
> Learning how to write properly will.

It's only confusing for you because you don't know what he's talking about.

aka you're ignorant.

HTH and HAND.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?

> GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

>
> Victor H: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

In the 1980s and 1990s....!

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 8:39:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.

> From when?

> When has poetry been popular with the general public in the past 50 years?

As I stated earlier. Hip Hop, Rap and spoken work slam poetry has been VERY popular over the past 30 years or so....!

Will Dockery wrote:

> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>
>> as pathological

> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

Good thing that Hip Hop and Rap poetry are thriving now....

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_(culture)

> ************* Hip hop or hip-hop is a culture and art movement that was created by African Americans, Latino Americans and Caribbean Americans in the Bronx, New York City. The origin of the name is often disputed. It is also argued as to whether hip hop started in the South or West Bronx.[1][2][3][4][5] While the term hip hop is often used to refer exclusively to hip hop music (including rap),[6] hip hop is characterized by four key elements: "rapping" (also called MCing or emceeing), a rhythmic vocal rhyming style (orality); DJing (and turntablism), which is the practice of making music with record players and DJ mixers (aural/sound and music creation); b-boying/b-girling/breakdancing (movement/dance); and graffiti.[7][2][8][9][10]

> Other elements are: hip hop culture and historical knowledge of the movement (intellectual/philosophical); beatboxing, a percussive vocal style; street entrepreneurship; hip hop language; and hip hop fashion and style, among others.[11][12][13] The fifth element, although debated, is commonly considered either street knowledge, hip hop fashion, or beatboxing.[2][7]

> The Bronx hip hop scene emerged in the mid-1970s  *************************************

You nailed it, Victor.

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 7:30:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> >> No. George Dance got it right, you were the mistaken one, Michael Monkey.
>
> > George never said that Zod's sentence was correct. He was able to explain what Zod meant.
>
> Exactly, because Zod's meaning was obvious, and correct.

Insisting that a poorly written, and contextually incorrect sentence was in fact correct, will not make it so.

PS: Stamping your foot won't help.


Michael Pendragon
"One of the goals of poetry as I was taught and still work for, is as communication."
-- Will Dockery demonstrating his failure to communicate

By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.

No wonder you dropped that thread.

HTH and HAND.

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 9:00:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.
>
> No wonder you dropped that thread.
>
> HTH and HAND.

I dropped the thread because I see no point in arguing with a potato.

I have pointed out why the poem strongly implies that it is spoken by an adolescent to a much older man.

If you are incapable of perceiving that (comprehension has never been one of your strong points), I can't help you.


Michael Pendragon
"I was a youn gonr then , The little 1965,s I weas just a tou8ght in my
mothers young woumb>>>>> I remember the store and game room of
switch blde knifes and ball in mouth run away toyus. I love COlumbus
Square Mall and I will Bring It Back Soon enough as you can say Balls
in my courty! Fill My6 shyoes ass wholes!!! "
-- Will Donkey on a drunky

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 11:05:18 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Like I said, interesting how you dropped that thread as soon as you were proven wrong, Pendragon.
>
> HTH and HAND.

I dropped the thread because I see no point in arguing with a potato.

I have pointed out why the poem strongly implies that it is spoken by an adolescent to a much older man.

If you are incapable of perceiving that (comprehension has never been one of your strong points), I can't help you.

<PLONK>

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 11:10:03 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 11:05:18 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Like I said, interesting how you dropped that thread as soon as you were proven wrong, Pendragon.
> >
> > HTH and HAND.
> I dropped the thread because I see no point in arguing with a potato.
>
> I have pointed out why the poem strongly implies that it is spoken by an adolescent to a much older man.

Except that the poem was written for Neal Cassady, who was about the same age as Allen Ginsberg at the time.

> If you are incapable of perceiving that (comprehension has never been one of your strong points), I can't help you.
> <PLONK>

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 3:45:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 11:25:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
> >> >>
> >> >> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >> > half of the last century.
> >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >>
> >> >> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
> >> >> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> >> >> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> >> >> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> >> >> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> >> >> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
> >> >>
> >> >> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
> >> >>
> >> >> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.
> >>
> >> > Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things
> >>
> >> Not really, as explained earlier.
>
> > Yes, really.
> No, as has been explained to you.
>
> HTH and HAND.

You haven't "explained" anything, and his statements have been accurate.
Die in a fire.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> No. George Dance got it right, you were the mistaken one, Michael Monkey.

> George never said that Zod's sentence was correct.  He was able to explain what Zod meant.

Exactly, because Zod's meaning was obvious, and correct.

🙂

Rocky Stoneberg wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:

>> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>>
>>> as pathological

>> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

> Good thing that Hip Hop and Rap poetry are thriving now....

Part of the big changes in poetry of the 1980s and 1990s.

🙂

Like I said, interesting how you dropped that thread as soon as you were proven wrong, Pendragon.

HTH and HAND.

🙂

Like I said, by the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.

No wonder you dropped that thread.

Here you go, since you pretend to have missed it:

> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:43:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >
>> >> You've yet to show any pedophile imagery in the poem, Pendragon.
>>
>> > Why does the speaker address his sexual partner as "Master,"
>
> Look it up........:

***********************************************************************

https://www.beatdom.com/many-loves/

Neal Cassady often took on a larger than life persona in much of the Beat literature. ‘Please Master’ is one of the most graphically written works by Ginsberg about his relationship with Neal Cassady. Ginsberg portrays sadomasochistic sexuality precisely as a symbolic relationship, with language, too, that is ironic in its erotic affirmation of the master’s dominance and slave’s submission. In ‘Please Master’ Cassady seems self-evidently the controlling master having his way with a submissive Ginsberg. However a closer reading of the poem dramatizes sexual activity that, of course, would not occur without the person in the slave subject position initiating intercourse.

**********************************************************************

Like I said, for those who missed this yesterday, such as Michael Pendragon.

HTH and HAND.

🙂

Family Guy wrote:

> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 3:45:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 11:25:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 1:10:20 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > GD: Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >> > half of the last century.
>> >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Right at or just before the time period Zod mentioned right after this. The 1980s and 1990s were very much a part of the last half of the last century.
>> >> >> > It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> >> >> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> >> >> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
>> >> >> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>> >> >> > MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Obviously, Zod is clearly referring to the events of the last half of the last century, just as George Dance is.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Just as George Dance tried to explain to you, Pendragon.
>> >>
>> >> > Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things
>> >>
>> >> Not really, as explained earlier.
>>
>> > Yes, really.
>> No, as has been explained to you.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> You haven't "explained" anything


Sure, I have.

> Die in a fire

Your ongoing death fantasy is noted.

🙂

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 2:36:20 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 1:47:24 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 4:55:14 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > Will Dockery wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > >>> Like I said, this seems to be the first post made by Zod on the topic. He clearly is referring to the changes AFTER the 1970s in poetry, the shift back to rhymed poetry in the 1980-90s:
>> > > >
>> > > >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >>> > Zod wrote:
>> > > >>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> > > >>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> > > >>> >>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>> > > >>> >>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > >>> >>>>>>
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> > > >>> >>>>>
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> [...]
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> [...]
>> > > >>> >>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>> > > >>> >>>>>>>
>> > > >>> >>>>>
>> > > >>> >>>>>> Cool, second read
>> > > >>> >>>>>
>> > > >>> >>>>>
>> > > >>> >>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>> > > >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>> > > >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>> > > >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>> > > >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>> > > >>> >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>> > > >>> >>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>> > > >>> >>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>> > > >>> >>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>> "Rhyme is a crutch."
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>> > > >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> > > >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>> > > >>> >> which I did the same.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
>> > > >>> >> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
>> > > >>> >> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
>> > > >>> >> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
>> > > >>> >> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
>> > > >>> >> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
>> > > >>> >> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
>> > > >>> >> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
>> > > >>> >> for them.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >>>
>> > > >>> >>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> > > >>> >>> later years.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>> > > >>> >> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>> > > >>> >> influence on your doing that.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well....
>> > > >>> Zod is pointing out the changes Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry brought in the shift back to rhythm and rhyme dominating poetry.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/WrpDMvIPCQAJ
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> HTH and HAND.
>> > >
>> > > >> AGAIN:
>> > >
>> > > >>> MMP: What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been. And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> > >
>> > > > No, Zod was replying to THIS, as the context above clearly shows:
>> > >
>> > > > George J. Dance:
>> > > >>> >>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>> > > >>> >>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > >>> >>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > >>> >>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>> > > >>> >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > > And:
>> > >
>> > > > George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > >>> >> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > >>> >> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> > > >>> >> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > >>> >> which I did the same.
>> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > >>> ZOD: I think perhaps the advent of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....
>> > > Pen is not thinking this through....
>> > >
>> > > 1) Hip Hop poetry did not exist before the late 1970's... so...
>> > >
>> > > 2) I could NOT have been referring to something that happened many years before that.....
>> > Pendragon doesn't understand what you're talking about, so he doesn't want to accept it.
>> IKYABWAI will not make Zod's sentence any more intelligible.
>>
>> Learning how to write properly will.

> It's only confusing for you because you don't know what he's talking about.

> aka you're ignorant.

> HTH and HAND.
He seems slow on the uptake....

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.

> No wonder you dropped that thread.

> HTH and HAND.

Yep....

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/a-high-school-teacher-shared-allen-ginsburg-poem-and-had-to-resign.html


************************** “Please Master” is discomfiting and profane, an explicit account of a fantasized sexual encounter between Ginsberg and Neal Cassady, the inspiration for the Dean Moriarty character in Jack Kerouac’s On the Road. *******************************

Rocky Stoneberg wrote:

> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 8:39:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>>> Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.

>> From when?

>> When has poetry been popular with the general public in the past 50 years?

> As I stated earlier. Hip Hop, Rap and spoken work slam poetry has been VERY popular over the past 30 years or so....!


Of course Michael Pendragon is too much of a poetry bigot to notice that.

🙂

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> No, Zod's statement was clear

I'm quite sure it was, you and G.D. both understood it, for example.....

NancyGene wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> > Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>> >
>> > In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>> >
>> > HTH and HAND.
>>
>> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/
>>
>> http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex.
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html
>>
>> https://www.quora.com/In-your-opinion-is-Rap-music-poetry-and-why-why-not

> Barry Alfonso wrote in his biography of Rod McKuen, “A Voice of the Warm:”

> “Three and a half years of research has led me to believe that Rod told many white lies and some real whoppers about his life and career. A constant need to legitimize himself and prove his worth drove him to exaggerate his actual accomplishments, which were truly formidable. His deceptions were mostly benign; he probably came to believe many of them were true. In the end, they invoke more sympathy than outrage. No amount of recognition could still the nagging inner voice that he just wasn’t quite good enough.”

Rod McKuen was an interesting guy, agreed.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 12:46:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Like I said, when I locate and repost Zod's statement, we can take it from there.
>>
>> In other words, your memory can't be trusted, Pendragon.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> What part of

What part of you made a mistake and won't admit it isn't obvious, Pendragon?

Not much of it.

🙂

Will Dockery wrote:

> Rocky Stoneberg wrote:

>> Will Dockery wrote:

>>> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>>>
>>>> as pathological

>>> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

>> Good thing that Hip Hop and Rap poetry are thriving now....

> Part of the big changes in poetry of the 1980s and 1990s.

> 🙂

Indeed so...!

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.

>> No wonder you dropped that thread.

>> HTH and HAND.

> Yep....

> https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/a-high-school-teacher-shared-allen-ginsburg-poem-and-had-to-resign.html


> ************************** “Please Master” is discomfiting and profane, an explicit account of a fantasized sexual encounter between Ginsberg and Neal Cassady, the inspiration for the Dean Moriarty character in Jack Kerouac’s On the Road. *******************************

Exactly, you nailed it.

Family Guy wrote:

> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?

> What part of you are

Are you most obsessed with?

I don't know.

🙂

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> No, you have to know the history, Pendragon.

> Hip Hop, Rap and slam poetry didn't exist until the late 1970s-1990s.

> So the changes that poetry movement brought were in, in the words of George Dance, the later part of the last century.

> HTH and HAND.

Exactly spot on....

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 12:01:53 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:]
>
>> From the way you were so confused by Zod's statement about Hip Hop, Rap, and spoken word slam poetry, you obviously know little or nothing about that aspect of poetry in the 1980s and 1990s, Pendragon.
>>

> Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things.

No it was not....

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> No, Zod's statement was clear

> I'm quite sure it was, you and G.D. both understood it, for example.....


Of course.

🙂

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> When I locate and repost Zod's statement, we can take it from there.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> Been there.  Don't care.

Obviously you care enough to want to lie and misrepresent about it.

HTH and HAND.

Victor H. wrote:

> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 12:01:53 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:]
>>
>>> From the way you were so confused by Zod's statement about Hip Hop, Rap, and spoken word slam poetry, you obviously know little or nothing about that aspect of poetry in the 1980s and 1990s, Pendragon.
>>>

>> Again, what Zod meant and what Zod wrote are two very different things.

> No it was not....


Pendragon is just playing stupid again.

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> By the way, you were also shown to be mistaken about the "Please Master" poem on the Allen Ginsberg thread, while we're taking count, Pendragon.

>> No wonder you dropped that thread.

>> HTH and HAND.

> Yep....

> https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/a-high-school-teacher-shared-allen-ginsburg-poem-and-had-to-resign.html


> ************************** “Please Master” is discomfiting and profane, an explicit account of a fantasized sexual encounter between Ginsberg and Neal Cassady, the inspiration for the Dean Moriarty character in Jack Kerouac’s On the Road. *******************************

Well, that one sure shut Michael Pendragon up.

🙂

General-Zod wrote:

> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>> as pathological

>> Ignorant idiots... Exactly...!


Yes, Ilya nailed it.

Family Guy wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> What part of you seem to be mistaken are you not understanding, Pendragon?

> What part of

What part of you're a silly troll, Dink?

🙂

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> No, you have to know the history, Pendragon.

>> Hip Hop, Rap and slam poetry didn't exist until the late 1970s-1990s.

>> So the changes that poetry movement brought were in, in the words of George Dance, the later part of the last century.

>> HTH and HAND.

> Exactly spot on....


The truth will stand.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>>
>> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> No

Yes it is, you shit slinging little monkey.

> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/

> http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex.

> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html

> https://www.quora.com/In-your-opinion-is-Rap-music-poetry-and-why-why-not

HTH and HAND.

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>> No, Zod's statement was clear

> I'm quite sure it was, you and G.D. both understood it, for example.....

Exactly.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 11:32:28 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.
>>

> How do you know how much poetry I've read from the 1980s-1990s

Very little, from what you seem to know about that era of poetry.

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> So, you don't like my writing style, that still doesn't justify your ignorance of poetry in the 1980s-1990s, and the changes to poetry brought by Hip Hop, Rap and spoken word slam poetry.

That is indeed apparently true....