🚀 go-pugleaf

Interesting read, thanks for posting, Ilya.

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it as pathological. Someone wrote on the Internet that poetry is not a cure-all for low self-esteem. In my case it has nothing to do with my self-esteem at all. I started writing poetry when I was 10 and was recognized for it. And I did this in Russia, where poetry was a big thing.
> 

Toot! Toot!

> There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.
> 
> One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families, relationships and friendships.
> 

In which case, they should reserve it for their personal communications, and not subject poetry readers to it.

> Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their feelings and their thoughts.
> 

In which case, they should reserve it for their diaries, and *never* subject anyone to it.

> And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of people in all sorts of ways.
> 

In which case, they should consider writing a self-help book, and leave poetry to the poets.

> Finally, 

You said "three" reasons.

> in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something as such that adds to the civilization and the world.
> 

Now you're on the right track.

> In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither. There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my translations.
> 

Toot! Toot!

> Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.
> 

Never heard that one.  I have read articles which posited that artistic creativity shares patterns with schizotypal thought processes, but that doesn't make it a mental illness.

> The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France, Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry than in business, politics, media, academia or law.
> 

I think a poet has to be something of a narcissist in order to think that his thoughts are worthy of other people's time and, possibly, admiration.

> In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain, which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia, there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.
> 
> Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America are black.
> 

It's a universal "language."

> Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.
> 

It will never happen.  Poetry was popular when it was in a rhymed-metered form that readers could easily memorize and recite.  Today's free-verse, chopped prose, navel-gazings are of no interest to anyone.  Until such time as real poetry is published in the leading academic journals, poetry lovers will have to remain content quoting such masters as Poe, Shakespeare, Byron, Shelley, Coleridge, Keats, Tenneyson, Blake, et al.

> I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called post-modernism and avant-garde. 
>

Bingo!

> When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was poetry.
> 

We've vicious toward everyone regardless of poetic ability.

> The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people actually want to read.
> 

Agreed.  And, as mentioned above, poetry that lends itself to easy memorization and recitation.

> I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and turned it into poetry. The result was a book (https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Julia-Mr-Ilya-Shambat/dp/150234369X) that made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.
> 

Plug.

> I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.
> 
> Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present in poetry that people actually want to read.
>

Well ... it doesn't hurt to dream.

Pendragon wrote in message
news:3b5bf643-e684-47d0-8e56-ce789d2f62a7@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ib...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> as pathological. Someone wrote on the Internet that poetry is not a
> cure-all for low self-esteem. In my case it has nothing to do with my
> self-esteem at all. I started writing poetry when I was 10 and was
> recognized for it. And I did this in Russia, where poetry was a big thing.
>

Toot! Toot!

> There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see
> three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.
>
> One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about
> someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families,
> relationships and friendships.
>

In which case, they should reserve it for their personal communications, and
not subject poetry readers to it.

> Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their
> feelings and their thoughts.
>

In which case, they should reserve it for their diaries, and *never* subject
anyone to it.

> And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's
> understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of
> people in all sorts of ways.
>

In which case, they should consider writing a self-help book, and leave
poetry to the poets.

> Finally,

You said "three" reasons.

> in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something
> as such that adds to the civilization and the world.
>

Now you're on the right track.

> In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been
> the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full
> scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I
> have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were
> extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither.
> There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very
> viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my
> translations.
>

Toot! Toot!

> Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental
> illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from
> personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that
> it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.
>

Never heard that one.  I have read articles which posited that artistic
creativity shares patterns with schizotypal thought processes, but that
doesn't make it a mental illness.

> The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France,
> Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal
> people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with
> personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II
> generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any
> disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he
> would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much
> more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic
> disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in
> business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in
> poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry
> than in business, politics, media, academia or law.
>

I think a poet has to be something of a narcissist in order to think that
his thoughts are worthy of other people's time and, possibly, admiration.

> In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry
> may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In
> epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain,
> which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That
> can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an
> epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing
> his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia,
> there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not
> normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and
> people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that
> people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.
>
> Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that
> the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have
> news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that
> do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm
> zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America
> are black.
>

It's a universal "language."

> Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that
> is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes
> realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry
> and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such
> things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the
> demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing
> unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the
> American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.
>

It will never happen.  Poetry was popular when it was in a rhymed-metered
form that readers could easily memorize and recite.  Today's free-verse,
chopped prose, navel-gazings are of no interest to anyone.  Until such time
as real poetry is published in the leading academic journals, poetry lovers
will have to remain content quoting such masters as Poe, Shakespeare, Byron,
Shelley, Coleridge, Keats, Tenneyson, Blake, et al.

> I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it
> is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking
> poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry
> self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called
> post-modernism and avant-garde.
>

Bingo!

> When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an
> avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the
> Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of
> anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but
> they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was
> poetry.
>

We've vicious toward everyone regardless of poetic ability.

> The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is
> to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such
> as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and
> avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia
> read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to
> produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people
> actually want to read.
>

Agreed.  And, as mentioned above, poetry that lends itself to easy
memorization and recitation.

> I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not
> to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this
> way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her
> work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and
> turned it into poetry. The result was a book
> (https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Julia-Mr-Ilya-Shambat/dp/150234369X) that
> made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.
>

Plug.

> I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the
> misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense
> and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.
>
> Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present
> in poetry that people actually want to read.
>

Well ... it doesn't hurt to dream.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, a poetry discussion on a poetry group... amazing...

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ib...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> as pathological

Ignorant idiots...

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>> as pathological

> Ignorant idiots...

Exactly...!

ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>
> as pathological

As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

Will Dockery wrote:

> ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>>
>> as pathological

> As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.

sad but true...!

General-Zod wrote:

>
> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>> as pathological

>
> Ignorant idiots...
>
> Exactly...!

Poetry is in decline, anyone can see that.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 11:15:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> General-Zod wrote:
>
> >
> > On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> >>> as pathological
>
> >
> > Ignorant idiots...
> >
> > Exactly...!
> Poetry is in decline, anyone can see that.

In decline from what?  In decline from when?

When over the course of the past 50 years, has poetry been a major artistic, cultural, literary, or popular force?

-- Michael Pendragon
Die Stink, die.
Stop stinking up the place
Cover your ugly face
With sod so foul that only brambles dare
Take root atop its filth.  Your grizzled hair
Long home to ticks and fleas
Shall be the straw where graveworms make their bed;
The earth repels you like some rank disease
The sun shines brighter knowing that you're dead
And songbird choirs echo "Die Stink, die."

Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 8:39:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.

From when?

When has poetry been popular with the general public in the past 50 years?

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:09:51 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 8:39:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.
> From when?
>
> When has poetry been popular with the general public in the past 50 years?

Rod McKuen was popular in the 1970s.

Charles Bukowski was popular in the 1980s and 1990s.

Drake is a popular poet now.

HTH and HAND.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:47:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:09:51 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 8:39:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> > > Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.
> > From when?
> >
> > When has poetry been popular with the general public in the past 50 years?
> Rod McKuen was popular in the 1970s.
>
> Charles Bukowski was popular in the 1980s and 1990s.
>
> Drake is a popular poet now.
>
> HTH and HAND.

So... we had one popular poet in the 70s, one popular poet in the 80s and 90s, and one popular poet now...?

It would seem that poetry is holding steady at a rate of one popular poet per decade.

Where is the perceived decline?

I don't know for sure but even those three poets are probably not known to the general public.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 11:41:12 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> I don't know for sure but even those three poets are probably not known to the general public.

Probably not.

So where is the decline?

What decade/s was poetry more popular than it has been from the 1970s to the present?

The 1950s and 1960s had the Best poets, not to mention guys like Robert Frost and Carl Sandburg still very popular and well known to the general public.

Rod McKuen was a best selling poet in the 1960s.

To name a few.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> The 1950s and 1960s had the Best poets, not to mention guys like Robert Frost and Carl Sandburg still very popular and well known to the general public.
>
> Rod McKuen was a best selling poet in the 1960s.
>
> To name a few.

So... you're saying that poetry had been more popular in the 50s and 60s, but it declined by the 1970s.

IOW: Poetry is *not* in decline.  Poetry declined 50 years ago, and has been on life support ever since.

We can therefore dismiss your original statement, "Poetry is in decline, anyone can see that," as false.

Poetry was a popular form of literature throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries.  It's popularity declined at precisely the same time as the "modern" poets began to dominate the form (late 19th c.-early 20th c.).

Modern poetry, to all intents and purposes, killed poetry as a popular art form.

Other forms of poetry have been emerging, also.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Other forms of poetry have been emerging, also.

Their status as poetry is questionable.

However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.

Despite a handful of popular poets in the 1930s-50s, the popularity of poetry in general suffered a sharp decline at the end of WWI -- corresponding to the general decline of rhymed-metered verse and the acceptance of Modern poetry by the establishment.

Ilya is correct in his assertion that poetry needs to change if it is ever to become popular again, but the abstract contemplation of Beauty is not enough to bring it back.  It needs to rely on rhyme and meter, and it must be understandable on the first or second read.

Reading a poem should not be an intellectual chore that requires an extensive knowledge of mythology, literature, history, etc., along with a dictionary-sized vocabulary.  Rather, the common person on the street should be able to read it, think "Wow! That's exactly how I've always felt about this," and want to share it with his/her friends.

Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.

In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.

HTH and HAND.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>
> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>
> HTH and HAND.

No, Donkey.  It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/

http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html

https://www.quora.com/In-your-opinion-is-Rap-music-poetry-and-why-why-not

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 5:49:00 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> > Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski. 
> > 
> > In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry. 
> > 
> > HTH and HAND.
> No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned: 
> 
> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/ 
> 
> http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex. 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html 
> 
> https://www.quora.com/In-your-opinion-is-Rap-music-poetry-and-why-why-not

Barry Alfonso wrote in his biography of Rod McKuen, “A Voice of the Warm:”

“Three and a half years of research has led me to believe that Rod told many white lies and some real whoppers about his life and career. A constant need to legitimize himself and prove his worth drove him to exaggerate his actual accomplishments, which were truly formidable. His deceptions were mostly benign; he probably came to believe many of them were true. In the end, they invoke more sympathy than outrage. No amount of recognition could still the nagging inner voice that he just wasn’t quite good enough.”

Now, who does that sound like?

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:20:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote: 
> 
> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> > 
> >> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski. 
> >> 
> >> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry. 
> >> 
> >> HTH and HAND. 
> 
> > No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned: 
> 
> > https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/ 
> 
> > http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex. 
> 
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html
> Both sides can be argued for: 
> 
> "...rappers and the poets who claim affinity with them are resuscitating a body of literary practices mostly neglected in poetry during the 20th century. These ghost appendages of form — repetition, patterned rhythm and, above all, rhyme — thrive in song, especially in rap [...] MEANWHILE, A PARALLEL evolution is underway in poetry, spurring a renaissance of sorts. In 2012, according to the National Endowment for the Arts’ Survey of Public Participation in the Arts, only 6.7 percent of adults reported having read poetry in the last year. By 2017, the number had nearly doubled, with the largest increase (from 8.2 to 17.5 percent) occurring among 18- to 24-year-olds. 
> 
> Several factors have contributed to poetry’s resurgence: the influence of Twitter, Instagram and TikTok as performance and promotion platforms; the proliferation of small presses and online journals publishing increasingly varied work; the pull of poetic language, as both balm and bludgeon, during periods of national struggle. Poetry’s growing readership is no doubt also tied to its expanding authorship, as a diverse array of voices are now choosing to express themselves in patterned words. “Access is all you need,” the poet Morgan Parker says. “People just don’t know that they like poetry.” 
> 
> And so it goes.

That's the point, Donkey.

The fact that "both sides can be argued for" means that its status as poetry is questionable.

That's what the word, "questionable," means.

Look it up.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:40:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote: 
> 
> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:20:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote: 
> >> 
> >> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> >> > 
> >> >> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> HTH and HAND. 
> >> 
> >> > No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned: 
> >> 
> >> > https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/ 
> >>
> >> > http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex..
> >> 
> >> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html 
> >> Both sides can be argued for: 
> >> 
> >> "...rappers and the poets who claim affinity with them are resuscitating a body of literary practices mostly neglected in poetry during the 20th century. These ghost appendages of form — repetition, patterned rhythm and, above all, rhyme — thrive in song, especially in rap [...] MEANWHILE, A PARALLEL evolution is underway in poetry, spurring a renaissance of sorts. In 2012, according to the National Endowment for the Arts’ Survey of Public Participation in the Arts, only 6.7 percent of adults reported having read poetry in the last year. By 2017, the number had nearly doubled, with the largest increase (from 8.2 to 17.5 percent) occurring among 18- to 24-year-olds. 
> >> 
> >> Several factors have contributed to poetry’s resurgence: the influence of Twitter, Instagram and TikTok as performance and promotion platforms; the proliferation of small presses and online journals publishing increasingly varied work; the pull of poetic language, as both balm and bludgeon, during periods of national struggle. Poetry’s growing readership is no doubt also tied to its expanding authorship, as a diverse array of voices are now choosing to express themselves in patterned words. “Access is all you need,” the poet Morgan Parker says. “People just don’t know that they like poetry.” 
> >> 
> >> And so it goes. 
> 
> > That's the point, Donkey. 
> 
> > The fact that "both sides can be argued for" means that its status as poetry is questionable.
> Your opinion is also questionable. 

It isn't an opinion, Donkey.

I posted links to several articles that question whether rap, hip-hop, and such is poetry.

It is a fact that a lot of people are asking this question.   Just as it is a fact that there are many people on each side.

Since it is, in fact, very literally being questioned, its status is (literally) questionable.

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:58:40 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:40:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> > Michael Pendragon wrote: 
> > 
> > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:20:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> > >> Michael Pendragon wrote: 
> > >> 
> > >> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> > >> > 
> > >> >> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski. 
> > >> >> 
> > >> >> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry. 
> > >> >> 
> > >> >> HTH and HAND. 
> > >> 
> > >> > No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned: 
> > >> 
> > >> > https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/ 
> > >> 
> > >> > http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex.. 
> > >> 
> > >> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html 
> > >> Both sides can be argued for: 
> > >> 
> > >> "...rappers and the poets who claim affinity with them are resuscitating a body of literary practices mostly neglected in poetry during the 20th century. These ghost appendages of form — repetition, patterned rhythm and, above all, rhyme — thrive in song, especially in rap [...] MEANWHILE, A PARALLEL evolution is underway in poetry, spurring a renaissance of sorts. In 2012, according to the National Endowment for the Arts’ Survey of Public Participation in the Arts, only 6.7 percent of adults reported having read poetry in the last year. By 2017, the number had nearly doubled, with the largest increase (from 8.2 to 17.5 percent) occurring among 18- to 24-year-olds. 
> > >> 
> > >> Several factors have contributed to poetry’s resurgence: the influence of Twitter, Instagram and TikTok as performance and promotion platforms; the proliferation of small presses and online journals publishing increasingly varied work; the pull of poetic language, as both balm and bludgeon, during periods of national struggle. Poetry’s growing readership is no doubt also tied to its expanding authorship, as a diverse array of voices are now choosing to express themselves in patterned words. “Access is all you need,” the poet Morgan Parker says. “People just don’t know that they like poetry.” 
> > >> 
> > >> And so it goes. 
> > 
> > > That's the point, Donkey. 
> > 
> > > The fact that "both sides can be argued for" means that its status as poetry is questionable. 
> > Your opinion is also questionable.
> It isn't an opinion

Yes it is, Voodoo Boy...

Now fuck off, and fuck you......!

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>>
>> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> No, Donkey.  It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned:

> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/

> http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex.

> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html


Both sides can be argued for:

"...rappers and the poets who claim affinity with them are resuscitating a body of literary practices mostly neglected in poetry during the 20th century. These ghost appendages of form — repetition, patterned rhythm and, above all, rhyme — thrive in song, especially in rap [...] MEANWHILE, A PARALLEL evolution is underway in poetry, spurring a renaissance of sorts. In 2012, according to the National Endowment for the Arts’ Survey of Public Participation in the Arts, only 6.7 percent of adults reported having read poetry in the last year. By 2017, the number had nearly doubled, with the largest increase (from 8.2 to 17.5 percent) occurring among 18- to 24-year-olds.

Several factors have contributed to poetry’s resurgence: the influence of Twitter, Instagram and TikTok as performance and promotion platforms; the proliferation of small presses and online journals publishing increasingly varied work; the pull of poetic language, as both balm and bludgeon, during periods of national struggle. Poetry’s growing readership is no doubt also tied to its expanding authorship, as a diverse array of voices are now choosing to express themselves in patterned words. “Access is all you need,” the poet Morgan Parker says. “People just don’t know that they like poetry.”

And so it goes.

NancyGene wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 5:49:00 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>> >
>> > In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>> >
>> > HTH and HAND.
>> No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned:
>>
>> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/
>>
>> http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex.
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html
>>
>> https://www.quora.com/In-your-opinion-is-Rap-music-poetry-and-why-why-not

> Barry Alfonso wrote in his biography of Rod McKuen, “A Voice of the Warm:”

> “Three and a half years of research has led me to believe that Rod told many white lies and some real whoppers about his life and career. A constant need to legitimize himself and prove his worth drove him to exaggerate his actual accomplishments, which were truly formidable. His deceptions were mostly benign; he probably came to believe many of them were true. In the end, they invoke more sympathy than outrage. No amount of recognition could still the nagging inner voice that he just wasn’t quite good enough.”

> Now, who does that sound like?

It sounds like Rod McKuen to me.

:)

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.

> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.

> HTH and HAND.


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/49a7-W02I0E/ydzf1mrlCgAJ

>> "I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg." -Michael Pendragon

Yep...

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:20:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >
>> >> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>> >>
>> >> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>> >>
>> >> HTH and HAND.
>>
>> > No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned:
>>
>> > https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/
>>
>> > http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex..
>>
>> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html
>> Both sides can be argued for:
>>
>> "...rappers and the poets who claim affinity with them are resuscitating a body of literary practices mostly neglected in poetry during the 20th century. These ghost appendages of form — repetition, patterned rhythm and, above all, rhyme — thrive in song, especially in rap [...] MEANWHILE, A PARALLEL evolution is underway in poetry, spurring a renaissance of sorts. In 2012, according to the National Endowment for the Arts’ Survey of Public Participation in the Arts, only 6.7 percent of adults reported having read poetry in the last year. By 2017, the number had nearly doubled, with the largest increase (from 8.2 to 17.5 percent) occurring among 18- to 24-year-olds.
>>
>> Several factors have contributed to poetry’s resurgence: the influence of Twitter, Instagram and TikTok as performance and promotion platforms; the proliferation of small presses and online journals publishing increasingly varied work; the pull of poetic language, as both balm and bludgeon, during periods of national struggle. Poetry’s growing readership is no doubt also tied to its expanding authorship, as a diverse array of voices are now choosing to express themselves in patterned words. “Access is all you need,” the poet Morgan Parker says. “People just don’t know that they like poetry.”
>>
>> And so it goes.

> That's the point, Donkey.

> The fact that "both sides can be argued for" means that its status as poetry is questionable.

Your opinion is also questionable.

:)

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:47:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:09:51 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 8:39:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >
>> > > Poetry's decline in popularity with the general public.
>> > From when?
>> >
>> > When has poetry been popular with the general public in the past 50 years?
>> Rod McKuen was popular in the 1970s.
>>
>> Charles Bukowski was popular in the 1980s and 1990s.
>>
>> Drake is a popular poet now.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> So... we had one popular poet in the 70s, one popular poet in the 80s and 90s, and one popular poet now...?

That's my observation, for starters.

You seem to be keeping up well so far, Pendragon.

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> The 1950s and 1960s had the Best poets, not to mention guys like Robert Frost and Carl Sandburg still very popular and well known to the general public.

> Rod McKuen was a best selling poet in the 1960s.

> To name a few.

Quite right...

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> >> Other forms of poetry have b
> een emerging, also.
>
> > Their status as poetry is questionable.
>
> > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
> Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
>

IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).

I am not saying any such thing.

Michael Pendragon
"(I) put my finger to her hole."
-- Will Dockery, waxing poetic on the topic of romantic love

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:25:56 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > >> Other forms of poetry have b
> > een emerging, also.
> >
> > > Their status as poetry is questionable.
> >
> > > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
> > Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
> >
> IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).

I never claimed that, you're confused again.

> I am not saying any such thing.
>
> Michael Pendragon
> "(I) put my finger to her hole."
> -- Will Dockery, waxing poetic on the topic of romantic love

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:44:12 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:25:56 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Other forms of poetry have b
> > > een emerging, also.
> > >
> > > > Their status as poetry is questionable.
> > >
> > > > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
> > > Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
> > >
> > IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).
> I never claimed that, you're confused again.

What you write, and what you think you have written, rarely (if ever) coincide.

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 3:20:19 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:44:12 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:25:56 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> Other forms of poetry have b
> >> > > een emerging, also.
> >> > >
> >> > > > Their status as poetry is questionable.
> >> > >
> >> > > > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
> >> > > Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
> >> > >
> >> > IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).
> >> I never claimed that, you're confused again.
>
> > What you write, and what you think you have written, rarely (if ever) coincide.
> Your memory isn't always so good, either.
>
> We can go back and repost it.

You certainly can.

We, otoh, have better things to do.

Michael Pendragon
"I got one pair of trousers and one pair of shoes
They're old as Methuselah, worn out from use,
They smell like old waffles, cigar smoke and booze
And crusty with cum stains from much self abuse."
-- Will Dockery, "Shadowville Mythos: Ode to My Slurp-puppet"

Okay, I'll bump the discussion when I return there.

🙂

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Other forms of poetry have b
een emerging, also.

> Their status as poetry is questionable.

> However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.

Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:44:12 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:25:56 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >> Other forms of poetry have b
>> > > een emerging, also.
>> > >
>> > > > Their status as poetry is questionable.
>> > >
>> > > > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
>> > > Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
>> > >
>> > IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).
>> I never claimed that, you're confused again.

> What you write, and what you think you have written, rarely (if ever) coincide.

Your memory isn't always so good, either.

We can go back and repost it.

🙂

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 12:15:30 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 3:20:19 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:44:12 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:25:56 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >> Other forms of poetry have b
> >> >> > > een emerging, also.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > Their status as poetry is questionable.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
> >> >> > > Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).
> >> >> I never claimed that, you're confused again.
> >>
> >> > What you write, and what you think you have written, rarely (if ever) coincide.
> >> Your memory isn't always so good, either.
> >>
> >> We can go back and repost it.
>
> > You certainly can.
> And will.
> > We, otoh, have better things to do.
> In other words, you know I'm right again.

No, Donkey.  I know that you're wrong.  Again.

I just don't care enough to search for an old conversation in which I'd already explained your error to you.

Stink meant to say that rap/spoken word were an influence on some forms of poetry today.  What he actually said was that Modern Poetry (which began roughly 175 years ago) was influenced by rap/spoken word.

You, being every bit as illiterate as your friend, supported his idiotic claim.

Except that I'm not wrong, any reader could understand Zod's meaning.

HTH and HAND.

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:36:27 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Except that I'm not wrong, any reader could understand Zod's meaning.
>

No, Will.

Any reader can only go by what he actually wrote.

If he were a knowledgeable, literary scholar, one might give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, as he's a poorly educated, drunken pissbum who is incapable of writing complete sentences, one may safely assume that anything he posts is either unintelligible or incorrect.


Michael Pendragon
"There you bare being baing lying, dishonest post editor Peter...."
-- George "Stink" Sulzbach, career pissbum

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 3:20:19 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:44:12 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:25:56 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 12:32:45 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >> Other forms of poetry have b
>> >> > > een emerging, also.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Their status as poetry is questionable.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > However, it remains significant that the first popular forms of poetry in the last 50+ years have been those that embrace the rhymed-metered form: Rap, spoken word, slam.
>> >> > > Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Zod was saying in the other thread.
>> >> > >
>> >> > IIRC, Stink backed your idiotic claim that Rap, spoken word, and slam influenced Modern poetry (ca. 1900).
>> >> I never claimed that, you're confused again.
>>
>> > What you write, and what you think you have written, rarely (if ever) coincide.
>> Your memory isn't always so good, either.
>>
>> We can go back and repost it.

> You certainly can.

And will.

> We, otoh, have better things to do.

In other words, you know I'm right again.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:36:27 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Except that I'm not wrong, any reader could understand Zod's meaning.
>>

> No, Will.

> Any reader can only go by what he actually wrote.

George Dance seemed to have no problem understanding what Zod was getting at on the resurgence of popularity in poetry after the 1980s-90s hip hop/rap/spoken word/slam era emerged.

Look it up.

Will Dockery wrote:

> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:36:27 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>>> Except that I'm not wrong, any reader could understand Zod's meaning.
>>>

>> No, Will.

>> Any reader can only go by what he actually wrote.

> George Dance seemed to have no problem understanding what Zod was getting at on the resurgence of popularity in poetry after the 1980s-90s hip hop/rap/spoken word/slam era emerged.

> Look it up.

Agreed and seconded, G. Dance seems to have greater insight than Pendragon....

Victor H. wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:

>> Michael Pendragon wrote:

>>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:36:27 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> Except that I'm not wrong, any reader could understand Zod's meaning.
>>>>

>>> No, Will.

>>> Any reader can only go by what he actually wrote.

>> George Dance seemed to have no problem understanding what Zod was getting at on the resurgence of popularity in poetry after the 1980s-90s hip hop/rap/spoken word/slam era emerged.

>> Look it up.

> Agreed and seconded, G. Dance seems to have greater insight than Pendragon....


Pendragon has a very narrow minded view of poetry.

Will Dockery wrote:
>
> Okay, I'll bump the discussion when I return there.

> 🙂

As I said there, the poets of the 1980s and 1990s resurrected poetry in many ways, with Hip Hop, Rap and Slam poetry....

But do look it up if needed....

Zod wrote:

> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:58:40 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:40:20 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 3:20:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> Questionable to you, Pendragon, a person who has fantasies of burning some of the greatest poetry of the last Century, such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> In other words, you're not a good judge of poetry.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> HTH and HAND.
>> > >>
>> > >> > No, Donkey. It's status of being considered "poetry" is currently being questioned:
>> > >>
>> > >> > https://www.theamericanconservative.com/prufrock/is-rap-poetry/
>> > >>
>> > >> > http://bowenstreetpress.com/blog/2016/9/28/is-rap-music-poetry#:~:text=Though%20some%20rap%20is%20poetry,that%20are%20intricate%20and%20complex..
>> > >>
>> > >> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/04/t-magazine/rap-hip-hop-poetry.html
>> > >> Both sides can be argued for:
>> > >>
>> > >> "...rappers and the poets who claim affinity with them are resuscitating a body of literary practices mostly neglected in poetry during the 20th century. These ghost appendages of form — repetition, patterned rhythm and, above all, rhyme — thrive in song, especially in rap [....] MEANWHILE, A PARALLEL evolution is underway in poetry, spurring a renaissance of sorts. In 2012, according to the National Endowment for the Arts’ Survey of Public Participation in the Arts, only 6.7 percent of adults reported having read poetry in the last year. By 2017, the number had nearly doubled, with the largest increase (from 8.2 to 17.5 percent) occurring among 18- to 24-year-olds.
>> > >>
>> > >> Several factors have contributed to poetry’s resurgence: the influence of Twitter, Instagram and TikTok as performance and promotion platforms; the proliferation of small presses and online journals publishing increasingly varied work; the pull of poetic language, as both balm and bludgeon, during periods of national struggle. Poetry’s growing readership is no doubt also tied to its expanding authorship, as a diverse array of voices are now choosing to express themselves in patterned words. “Access is all you need,” the poet Morgan Parker says. “People just don’t know that they like poetry.”
>> > >>
>> > >> And so it goes.
>> >
>> > > That's the point, Donkey.
>> >
>> > > The fact that "both sides can be argued for" means that its status as poetry is questionable.
>> > Your opinion is also questionable.
>> It isn't an opinion

> Yes it is.

Of course it is.

🙂

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 4:30:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote: 
> 
> > On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:36:27 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: 
> > 
> >> Except that I'm not wrong, any reader could understand Zod's meaning. 
> >> 
> 
> > No, Will. 
> 
> > Any reader can only go by what he actually wrote.
> George Dance seemed to have no problem understanding what Zod was getting at on the resurgence of popularity in poetry after the 1980s-90s hip hop/rap/spoken word/slam era emerged. 
> 
> Look it up.

Again: what he wrote and what he intended to say were two very different things.

George Dance has 15+ years of deciphering your gibberish, so he should be adept at deciphering your friend's.


Michael Pendragon
"I regard Romeo and Juliet to not just be a play about romantic love, but rather a metaphor for Europe's transformation from feudalism to civilization. Through the lovers' sacrifice the families realize the pointlessness of their feud and come together to work on building a civilization."
-- Ilya Shambat

When I locate and repost Zod's statement, we can take it from there.

HTH and HAND.

On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> When I locate and repost Zod's statement, we can take it from there.
>
> HTH and HAND.

Been there.  Don't care.

Learn how to read and write English.