🚀 go-pugleaf

Hello,

Are you talking about a bus pass? I bought a day travel card to
continue my travel on the tube inside central London, but the bus route
was actually outside this zone, and the bus stop was on the boarder
between the zones.  So, what I realised now, is that I could have
"saved" by buying just a tube return ticket if I wanted to.  But thanks
for the question.

I do not need to convince myself about my intentions, but obviously I
am now paranoid about my ability to proove them.  I simply cannot
afford thinking that anyone will simply "believe me".

thanks!

R

Hmmm, that never occured to me! This is an interesting note.  But I
really see no logic behind it - how my desire to pay at the first
opportunity leads him to believe I would only pay if challenged?  It is
at least as likely as me being simply inexperienced in such situations,
and just doing what I thought I had to do.  Oh, and please, don't
remind  me about the stupid corner shop where it all started.

I am gutted...

R

Yes, yes yes.. I hear what you are saying and agree in princeple.  But
pleading guilty means accepting that I actaully intended to comit the
"crime" of avaiding the payment to TFL of £1,20!  (although, I was
still going to buy a full day travel card, but that does not count as I
understand).  I do not want to accept something I did not do.  An
administrative charge, however, of whatever amount is a totally
different matter.  I believe the inspector was inexperienced or
incompetent or deliberatly deceptive (now I am beginning to think he
was envious or what not).  But he certainly did not take "all
reasonable steps".  I am afraid, I will have to see him in court to
talk about it.

Also, I have read now elsewhere that he could only ask for my name and
address, if I refused to pay on the spot.

Btw, there is a similar case now that was highlighted on BBC when a
woman had an Oyster card that did not read properly on a bus.  I guess
she also made a "fatal" mistake of agreeing to pay the penalty before
she was asked to.

Thanks for your advice!

R

not knowing the law cannot be consiered, I believe

Thank you.  I quote myself "Now, I know you've heard this many times
before...". So you did.

Thank you, Richard, this is a useful advice. First, I did not know that
a travel card in any zone is also valid on buses in all zones.  This
will save me money in the future!

Second, I am actually inclined to agree with you, as my first reaction
to this letter was that I should plead guilty, but explain my
circumstances, attach the tickets I've had on the day and before and
other documents, and ask for a smaller fine.  But when I called the
solicitor up, he said that it should be an administrative charge, not
criminal, because for a criminal offence you have to have aslo the
intention.  And I intended to buy a ticket for the whole day.  Now,
this maybe considered as nonsence (you are right to say, I also boarded
the bus without a ticket).  As far as I remember, the logic I had was
"I rather pay extra £10 penalty to TFL, than 50p to the local shop for
nothing".  At the time, for me, the expected utility of the first
outcome seemed greater.  So, when "caught", I was happy to pay the
£10, and I would have bought the travel card anyway.  Unfortunately, I
find myself being suspected of trying to "play the system".  Ok, I can
prove in court I did not.  But I need to decide my response.  I'll talk
to another solicotor tomorrow.

many thanks!

R

You maybe right that he did not take the payment becuase he could not
process a plastic card.  I can't remember exactly now.  I know the
conductors on the train have the facility.  So, why can't the
inspectors have one?  This is a bit strange, as I've just read the "new
fares" plan by Livingstone, where he is basically trying to discourage
cash payments.   In US, not being able to accept a credit card would be
their problem, not mine.  Well, the algorithm of how the inspectirs
work here and process fines seems to me a bit draconian, really.

R

On 27 Oct 2005 13:28:27 -0700, ribonucleotide <roman303606@googlemail.com>
 wrote in <1130444907.610393.96380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:

> let me go.  I was quite relieved as I thought the inspector was
> reasonable and understood my circumstances.  I went to the tube
> station and bought the day travel card (yes, including the zones where
> I was on the bus), and soon forgot about the incident.

	Something doesn't ring true.  Any travelcard is valid on (almost)
any bus[1], so you need pay no extra for "zones on the bus".

[1]] And had been for much more than 12 miooonths.

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering,     ___     CMS  Collaboration,
Brunel University.    Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch]    Room 40-1-B12, CERN
        KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

On 27 Oct 2005 13:28:27 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

<rest snipped>

>Now, year later I am receiving this fine of £100+ for a criminal
>offence!  Luckily, I have a bad habit to forget throwing the tickets
>away, and they get accumulated on a shelve in my house.  I managed to
>find the travel card I bought on that day as well as all travel cards
>I bought in the weeks before and after the incident.  I also have
>records on my bank statements that I paid to TFL and when (it shows
>that I bought the travel card 5 minutes after talking to the
>inspector).  I have consulted my solicitor, and he advised I should
>plead not guilty in court, as I did not try to evade the payment, was
>cooperative with the inspector and offered to pay the penalty on the
>spot (oh, by the way, the inspector never asked me to pay one).

Offering to pay the Penalty on the spot was a "fatal" mistake, and I
suspect *that* is why you were referred for prosecution.

>I, however, would like to ask what do you think my chances are?  I have
>no witnesses.  I've never been in a situation like this.  I feel a
>victim,
>and I am really frustrated with the conduct of the inspectors.  I was
>so naive!  Those are right who say "never trust a man in a uniform".

Unfortunately, there's very little you can do. You have to have a valid
ticket prior to boarding a bendybus, and if you don't you either get a
Penalty Fare (£20) or reported for possible prosecution.

By offering to pay the Penalty, you inadvertently gave the Inspector
cause to suspect that you would only have paid if challenged.

Sorry I can't offer a positive outlook, but that's the way Inspectors
generally look upon such situations.

Cheers,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

"ribonucleotide" <roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote in message 
news:1130444907.610393.96380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello,

I am writing for you advice: I have just received a fine from TFL and
a court hearing for not producing a £1,20 ticket on a bendy bus.  The
incident happened a year ago, and I believed the case has been
resolved long ago.  Now, I know you've heard this many times before,
but I truly did not try to evade paying, and in this situation, I
offered to pay the penalty to the inspector.  I believed, however,
that after hearing my circumstances, the inspector simply let me go.
Now, I have this fine, and I need your advice.  Here are the details
of what's happened.

I usually cycle in London, but if I don't, then I buy a travel card in
the corner shop near the bus stop.  There is no single cash point
within 1/2 mile off this bus stop.  Day before the incident, I did not
have cash, so I bought the travel card using my credit card in the
shop.  However, the shop charged me extra 50p for this!  I put up with
this and went to work.  Next day, when I approached the shop, I
realised that I did not have cash once again, and that again I would
be charged another 50p!  I hated myself for not preparing the cash in
advance, but I was so busy in those days that cash was the last thing
on my mind.  I was considering walking to the tube station when this
!%$! bendy bus pulled up and opened the doors.  I thought I'd jump on
the bus and buy my travel card in the tube.  I thought that in the
worst case, I would pay the penalty (all my plastic cards were with
me).  Guess what happened next?  Of course, on the arrival to the tube
station there was this swarm of inspectors, and so I got off the bus
with one of them and politely explained what's happened.  I actually
showed the inspector my wallet where there was no cash, but there were
all these travel cards from previous days including the one 50p dearer
that I bought the day before.  I admitted I was not entirely correct,
but I did not try to evade paying as I was about to buy the travel
card for the correct price.  I agreed, however, to pay the penalty and
handed my credit card to the inspector.  To my surprise, the inspector
gave it back to me and asked to tell him my name and address, which I
stupidly did.  I asked him what was about the fine, but he replied
something like "Don't worry, they will write to you if they need to",
and
let me go.  I was quite relieved as I thought the inspector was
reasonable and understood my circumstances.  I went to the tube
station and bought the day travel card (yes, including the zones where
I was on the bus), and soon forgot about the incident.

Now, year later I am receiving this fine of £100+ for a criminal
offence!  Luckily, I have a bad habit to forget throwing the tickets
away, and they get accumulated on a shelve in my house.  I managed to
find the travel card I bought on that day as well as all travel cards
I bought in the weeks before and after the incident.  I also have
records on my bank statements that I paid to TFL and when (it shows
that I bought the travel card 5 minutes after talking to the
inspector).  I have consulted my solicitor, and he advised I should
plead not guilty in court, as I did not try to evade the payment, was
cooperative with the inspector and offered to pay the penalty on the
spot (oh, by the way, the inspector never asked me to pay one).

I, however, would like to ask what do you think my chances are?  I have
no witnesses.  I've never been in a situation like this.  I feel a
victim,
and I am really frustrated with the conduct of the inspectors.  I was
so naive!  Those are right who say "never trust a man in a uniform".

I will be great to hear any advice.

Thank you

R

You are going to have a hard time arguing this in court.

Quite simply, you need a valid ticket or pass to travel. You must purchase 
this before you get on the bus (from a ticket shop or from a machine), or in 
cash from the driver on board (unless you are boarding at a 'yellow' bus 
stop in central London, where you must use the machine at the stop for cash 
fares).

Payment is never accepted via Credit Card ON the bus. When you got on that 
bus you did not have a means to pay.

If you want the luxury of paying for a ticket with a credit card then you 
have to go to a ticket shop and pay the extra 50p. This extra fee is common 
for many small purchases (not just tickets) as retailers get charged a fee 
by card issuers which means that it's uneconomic to sell to you unless you 
recompense them.

And it's not as if there weren't any alternatives where a little bit of 
organisation on your part could have saved you a lot of grief. You could 
have bought a book of saver tickets using your credit card the day before 
(and used them as you went on buses) or of course you could have got an 
Oyster Pre-Pay card.

And the inspector was just doing his job........

People of course come up with the lengthiest excuses when they get caught - 
if they put a tiny proportion of that effort into buying a ticket before 
travelling maybe they wouldn't land up in such a big mess. 

ribonucleotide wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Are you talking about a bus pass? I bought a day travel card to
> continue my travel on the tube inside central London, but the bus
> route was actually outside this zone, and the bus stop was on the
> boarder between the zones.  So, what I realised now, is that I
> could have "saved" by buying just a tube return ticket if I wanted
> to.

I don't understand that last sentence.  A tube return ticket has no
validity on buses, but any Travelcard, whatever zones it is valid for,
gives you unlimited bus travel for that day in all zones.

I am very surprised that your solicitor advised you to plead not guilty.
You travelled on a bendy bus without a valid ticket, without the means
to buy one at the bus stop, and without the means to pay a penalty fare
to a revenue inspector (as they don't take credit cards). So not only is
that a clear violation of regulations, but your mitigating plea that you
offered to pay a penalty fare is worthless because you had no cash to
pay it.  I am not a lawyer, but I would have thought a not-guilty plea
in those circumstances would be likely to attract a heavier fine.

My advice would be to plead guilty, briefly explain the circumstances,
demonstrate that you normally bought Travelcards (and did so afterwards
on this occasion), and give a grovelling apology.

Does your solicitor have any experience of such cases?  You *did* evade
payment at the time you boarded the bus, and your offer to pay the
penalty fare "on the spot" could not have been fulfilled, so his
reasoning is crazy.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:18:01 +0100, Barry Salter
<possspam@blackhole.southie.me.uk> wrote:

>Offering to pay the Penalty on the spot was a "fatal" mistake, and I
>suspect *that* is why you were referred for prosecution.

That was one reason. I suspect another was admitting to the inspector
that he deliberately boarded the bus knowing he did not hold a valid
ticket...

On 27 Oct 2005 15:13:38 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Hmmm, that never occured to me! This is an interesting note.  But I
>really see no logic behind it - how my desire to pay at the first
>opportunity leads him to believe I would only pay if challenged?

Some people try to play the system by never buying a ticket and just
paying the penalty whenever caught - in some areas the inspection rate
is so low that this strategy works out cheaper. It appears, from
various stories such as yours, that inspectors are trained to pursue a
prosecution against anyone who seems a bit too eager to pay the
penalty. You are by no means the first "honest" person to get caught
out by this.

On 27 Oct 2005 13:28:27 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

>I, however, would like to ask what do you think my chances are?  I have
>no witnesses.  I've never been in a situation like this.  I feel a
>victim,
>and I am really frustrated with the conduct of the inspectors.  I was
>so naive!  Those are right who say "never trust a man in a uniform".

Why do you feel like a victim?   It was inconvenient for you to buy a
ticket.  So you didn't.  You got caught.  Fair cop.

ribonucleotide wrote:
> Thank you, Richard, this is a useful advice.

You're welcome.  Another piece of advice:  I've just gone into
uk.transport.london to read any new messages, and am faced with four of
them from you with no indication of which messages you are replying to,
except that you included my name in one of them.  Please quote
sufficient context of the message you are replying to, as many of us use
newsreaders which don't display the messages in the same way as Google
Groups.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 27 Oct 2005 15:13:38 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Hmmm, that never occured to me! This is an interesting note.  But I
>really see no logic behind it - how my desire to pay at the first
>opportunity leads him to believe I would only pay if challenged?  It is
>at least as likely as me being simply inexperienced in such situations,
>and just doing what I thought I had to do.  Oh, and please, don't
>remind  me about the stupid corner shop where it all started.
>

Don't be a prat.  The first opportunity was BEFORE you got on the bus.
Not when you saw an inspector.

>I am gutted...

So counter-sue for being caused stress and made unhappy.  If you can
get Cherie Blair on the case, you might even win.

J Lynch wrote:
> I understand your situation and you probably are genuine, but consider this
> for a moment. As suggested above, it would be surprising if a determined
> fare dodger were to say "its a fair cop guv - I have been deliberately
> defrauding TfL for a long time, thank you for catching me". It would be
> rather more likely that he or she will give some sort of reason, perhaps
> like the one you gave, to make it seem that he or he had simply failed to
> pay a fare that day, rather than travelling free on a regular basis. Exactly
> how, objectively, do you differentiate between a persistent fare dodger and
> someone such as yourself in those circumstances?

This I understand.  But I showed to the inspector a pack of travel
cards for each of the previous days.  I have them here in front of me:
Day travel cards for January 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, week travel card up to
31 Jnr, and now travel card for 1 FBY (for which I paid extra 50p).  I
also have here the card I bought on 2 FBY.  I had these cards in my
wallet at the time, as they get accumulated there, and then I put them
on a shelve here (luckily, I have not thrown them away yet!).  So, how
could the inspector not see this?  Well, acually, I thought he did see
them and he simply decided to let me go.  What I did not realise is
that they take your address to send you £100 fine.  And this is really
disguisting.

R

Colin wrote:
> If you want the luxury of paying for a ticket with a credit card then you
> have to go to a ticket shop and pay the extra 50p. This extra fee is common
> for many small purchases (not just tickets) as retailers get charged a fee
> by card issuers which means that it's uneconomic to sell to you unless you
> recompense them.

Luxury? ;-) Rather a necessity in many sitations, for which the owner
pays extra.  It is not true that the extra charges for credit card
payments are applied only by small retailers.  IKEA and many others do
that as well in this country.

R

> I went to the tube station and bought the day travel card
> (yes, including the zones where I was on the bus)

You needn't have bothered with the "extra" zones for the bus.
When you buy a travelcard for *any* combination of zones
it autmatically becomes valid on the bus in *all* zones.

>
> Now, year later I am receiving this fine of £100+ for a criminal
> offence!  Luckily, I have a bad habit to forget throwing the tickets
> away, and they get accumulated on a shelve in my house.  I managed to
> find the travel card I bought on that day as well as all travel cards
> I bought in the weeks before and after the incident.  I also have
> records on my bank statements that I paid to TFL and when (it shows
> that I bought the travel card 5 minutes after talking to the
> inspector).  I have consulted my solicitor, and he advised I should
> plead not guilty in court, as I did not try to evade the payment, was
> cooperative with the inspector and offered to pay the penalty on the
> spot (oh, by the way, the inspector never asked me to pay one).
>
> I, however, would like to ask what do you think my chances are?  I have
> no witnesses.  I've never been in a situation like this.  I feel a
> victim,
> and I am really frustrated with the conduct of the inspectors.  I was
> so naive!  Those are right who say "never trust a man in a uniform".
>
>
> You are going to have a hard time arguing this in court.
>
>
> People of course come up with the lengthiest excuses when they get 
> caught - if they put a tiny proportion of that effort into buying a ticket 
> before travelling maybe they wouldn't land up in such a big mess.

I understand your situation and you probably are genuine, but consider this 
for a moment. As suggested above, it would be surprising if a determined 
fare dodger were to say "its a fair cop guv - I have been deliberately 
defrauding TfL for a long time, thank you for catching me". It would be 
rather more likely that he or she will give some sort of reason, perhaps 
like the one you gave, to make it seem that he or he had simply failed to 
pay a fare that day, rather than travelling free on a regular basis. Exactly 
how, objectively, do you differentiate between a persistent fare dodger and 
someone such as yourself in those circumstances? 

"ribonucleotide" <roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1130444907.610393.96380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Now, year later I am receiving this fine of £100+ for a criminal
> offence!

They could only manage that if you gave them your name and address.

Dr Ivan D. Reid (Ivan.Reid@brunel.ac.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

>> let me go.  I was quite relieved as I thought the inspector was
>> reasonable and understood my circumstances.  I went to the tube
>> station and bought the day travel card (yes, including the zones
>> where I was on the bus), and soon forgot about the incident.

>      Something doesn't ring true.  Any travelcard is valid on (almost)
> any bus[1], so you need pay no extra for "zones on the bus".

IRTA having got the bus from (say) Zone 4 to a Zone 3 tube station and then
buying a travelcard including Zone 4.

Would a Z1-2-3 travelcard cover bus to Z4?

Adrian (toomany2cvs@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

> Would a Z1-2-3 travelcard cover bus to Z4?

<reads rest of thread>
Well, I never.. Live and learn.

On 27 Oct 2005 16:46:38 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Yes, yes yes.. I hear what you are saying and agree in princeple.  But
>pleading guilty means accepting that I actaully intended to comit the
>"crime" of avaiding the payment to TFL of £1,20!  (although, I was
>still going to buy a full day travel card, but that does not count as I
>understand).  I do not want to accept something I did not do.  An
>administrative charge, however, of whatever amount is a totally
>different matter.  I believe the inspector was inexperienced or
>incompetent or deliberatly deceptive (now I am beginning to think he
>was envious or what not).  But he certainly did not take "all
>reasonable steps".  I am afraid, I will have to see him in court to
>talk about it.


You not only intended to commit the "crime", you actually DID commit
it :-)

The time to negotiate a free ride was when you boarded the bus,
inconvenient though that may have been.   Not when you saw an
inspector approaching.

YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM in this affair.  The rules were inconvenient, so
you ignored them.   Your cheapest option is to plead guilty and pay
up.  If you go to court you will have to pay costs as well.

On 27 Oct 2005 17:12:29 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

>As far as I remember, the logic I had was
>"I rather pay extra £10 penalty to TFL, than 50p to the local shop for
>nothing".  At the time, for me, the expected utility of the first
>outcome seemed greater.  So, when "caught", I was happy to pay the
>£10, and I would have bought the travel card anyway.  Unfortunately, I
>find myself being suspected of trying to "play the system".  Ok, I can
>prove in court I did not.  But I need to decide my response.  I'll talk
>to another solicotor tomorrow.

No.  Your logic was "I'll gamble a sure 50p loss against a lower
chance of a £10 penalty".  That was not your option to choose.  You
weren't "caught" in cute inverted commas.  You were caught, period.

Aren't all these solicitors getting rather expensive?  They may offer
a cheap initial consultation, but if you fight the case they won't
work for free.

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:25:06 +0100, "Harry Spencer"
<hs@hp-l-spencer.com> wrote:

>> Now, year later I am receiving this fine of £100+ for a criminal
>> offence!
>
>They could only manage that if you gave them your name and address.

Are you QUITE sure you didn't contrive to "lose" any letters on the
subject during that year?

On 28 Oct 2005 10:22:46 GMT, Adrian <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:

>IRTA having got the bus from (say) Zone 4 to a Zone 3 tube station and then
>buying a travelcard including Zone 4.
>
>Would a Z1-2-3 travelcard cover bus to Z4?

Yes.  As long as you'd bought it BEFORE getting on the bus :-)

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:13:38 -0700, ribonucleotide wrote:

> Hmmm, that never occured to me! This is an interesting note.  But I really
> see no logic behind it - how my desire to pay at the first opportunity
> leads him to believe I would only pay if challenged?  It is at least as
> likely as me being simply inexperienced in such situations, and just doing
> what I thought I had to do.  Oh, and please, don't remind  me about the
> stupid corner shop where it all started.

When I used to get travel from an ungated tube to a DLR station I worked
out it would be cheaper to pay the penalty fare each time I was challenged
than pay my monthly card (I never did). I suppose people with than
mentality will see a penalty fare as their period ticket and are more
likely to offer to pay.

>
> I am gutted...
>
> R

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:27:49 +0100, steve wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:13:38 -0700, ribonucleotide wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that never occured to me! This is an interesting note.  But I
>> really see no logic behind it - how my desire to pay at the first
>> opportunity leads him to believe I would only pay if challenged?  It is
>> at least as likely as me being simply inexperienced in such situations,
>> and just doing what I thought I had to do.  Oh, and please, don't remind
>>  me about the stupid corner shop where it all started.
>
> When I used to get travel from an ungated tube to a DLR station I worked
> out it would be cheaper to pay the penalty fare each time I was challenged
> than pay my monthly card (I never did).

That is I never dodged the fare and I always bought the travelcard.

On 27 Oct 2005 16:46:38 -0700, "ribonucleotide"
<roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Yes, yes yes.. I hear what you are saying and agree in princeple.  But
>pleading guilty means accepting that I actaully intended to comit the
>"crime" of avaiding the payment to TFL of £1,20!  (although, I was
>still going to buy a full day travel card, but that does not count as I
>understand).  I do not want to accept something I did not do.

Except that you did, of course.  The simple fact is that you did not
have a valid ticket when boarding the bus, and any subsequent
intention to buy a Travelcard does not miraculously validate your
previous journey.  If you had got off the bus, walked into the Tube
station, bought your Travelcard, and then been approached by a bus
inpsector, saying, "It's OK, I've got a Travelcard now," wouldn't cut
any ice.  After all, if you had paid cash on the bus or used a SAver,
you would not have got a refund on either when buying the Travelcard
later, would you?

>An administrative charge, however, of whatever amount is a totally
>different matter.  I believe the inspector was inexperienced or
>incompetent or deliberatly deceptive (now I am beginning to think he
>was envious or what not).

"Envious" of what?!

>But he certainly did not take "all reasonable steps".  I am afraid,
>I will have to see him in court to talk about it.

Sounds to me that you provided all the evidence for an open-and-shut
case without him even trying.

>Also, I have read now elsewhere that he could only ask for my name and
>address, if I refused to pay on the spot.

Effectively you did, as you had no means to pay, by your own
admission.

>Btw, there is a similar case now that was highlighted on BBC when a
>woman had an Oyster card that did not read properly on a bus.  I guess
>she also made a "fatal" mistake of agreeing to pay the penalty before
>she was asked to.

No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
and lost.  Just like you.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
	http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

"Adrian" <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96FD7432978FDadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170...
> Adrian (toomany2cvs@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> were saying :
>
>> Would a Z1-2-3 travelcard cover bus to Z4?
>
> <reads rest of thread>
> Well, I never.. Live and learn.

I think it changed in 2003 when Oyster came out. Before then you did need
all the zones you travelled through. TfL do not go out of their way to make this
fact clear, possibly because of the potential for lost revenue from those who
do not know and continue to buy zones they don't need.

This means that a single zone travelcard is also a bus pass for *all zones* despite
being only marginally more expensive than a bus pass. Anyone who uses the
buses regularly and may on occasion use the tube would probably be better off
with the single zone travelcard rather than the bus pass.

>From January the single zone travelcard is withdrawn but the difference in price
between a two zone weekly travelcard and the bus pass will still only be 50p.
i.e. 50p extra a week to able to use all tube, DLR and National Rail in zones 2
and 3 (or whatever two adjacent zones you choose other than zone 1)

In message <436437b2.1954437@news.virgin.net>, at 08:53:44 on Sat, 29
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
remarked:
>>Btw, there is a similar case now that was highlighted on BBC when a
>>woman had an Oyster card that did not read properly on a bus.  I guess
>>she also made a "fatal" mistake of agreeing to pay the penalty before
>>she was asked to.
>
>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
>and lost.  Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light. Presumed innocent until the case has come to court, eh?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 08:53:44 +0000, Nick Cooper wrote:

> On 27 Oct 2005 16:46:38 -0700
> Except that you did, of course.  The simple fact is that you did not have
> a valid ticket when boarding the bus, and any subsequent intention to buy
> a Travelcard does not miraculously validate your previous journey.  If you
> had got off the bus, walked into the Tube station, bought your Travelcard,
> and then been approached by a bus inpsector, saying, "It's OK, I've got a
> Travelcard now," wouldn't cut any ice.  After all, if you had paid cash on
> the bus or used a SAver, you would not have got a refund on either when
> buying the Travelcard later, would you?

To go off on a tangent, I find it a shame an oyster card does not do that.

I often don't know the best date to start my travel card and the day I do
I have to get a bus to get somewhere I can renew it, it should be within
the capability of the Oyster system to put my pre-pay back.

All of this hassle because you wanted to save 50 pence.
Personally I don't think it was worth it.
Only you can be accountable for your actions.

Mr T

"Harry Spencer" <hs@hp-l-spencer.com> wrote in message 
news:3se5k1Fn675iU1@individual.net...
> "ribonucleotide" <roman303606@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:1130444907.610393.96380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Now, year later I am receiving this fine of £100+ for a criminal
>> offence!
>
> They could only manage that if you gave them your name and address.
>
> 

ribonucleotide wrote:
> J Lynch wrote:
>>I understand your situation and you probably are genuine, but consider this
>>for a moment. As suggested above, it would be surprising if a determined
>>fare dodger were to say "its a fair cop guv - I have been deliberately
>>defrauding TfL for a long time, thank you for catching me". It would be
>>rather more likely that he or she will give some sort of reason, perhaps
>>like the one you gave, to make it seem that he or he had simply failed to
>>pay a fare that day, rather than travelling free on a regular basis. Exactly
>>how, objectively, do you differentiate between a persistent fare dodger and
>>someone such as yourself in those circumstances?
>
> This I understand.  But I showed to the inspector a pack of travel
> cards for each of the previous days.  I have them here in front of me:
> Day travel cards for January 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, week travel card up to
> 31 Jnr, and now travel card for 1 FBY (for which I paid extra 50p).  I
> also have here the card I bought on 2 FBY.

Can you tell from these tickets where you bought them? If not, the
inspector could assume you got a free bus ride before buying them on
all those days too.

Also, I'm not clear from your story if you could have avoided the
inspectors by getting off earlier or later. If so, that would count in
your favour - a deliberate fare-dodger would have avoided the
inspectors if he could. But it might cost you more to argue this in
court than you would save if your argument were accepted.

Colin McKenzie

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 12:55:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <436437b2.1954437@news.virgin.net>, at 08:53:44 on Sat, 29
>Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
>remarked:
>>>Btw, there is a similar case now that was highlighted on BBC when a
>>>woman had an Oyster card that did not read properly on a bus.  I guess
>>>she also made a "fatal" mistake of agreeing to pay the penalty before
>>>she was asked to.
>>
>>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
>>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
>>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
>>and lost.  Just like you.
>
>Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
>green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

>Presumed innocent until the case has come to court, eh?

Prseumed stupid in this case, more like.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
	http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

In message <4369ab72.7090168@news.virgin.net>, at 11:14:55 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
remarked:
>>>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
>>>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
>>>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
>>>and lost.  Just like you.
>>
>>Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
>>green light.
>
>Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
>when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
>another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
>boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

(Does anyone else think it's odd that tube gates "acknowledge" the
receipt of a paper ticket by putting on a red, or is it orange, light?
So passengers begin to associate success with that.)

>>Presumed innocent until the case has come to court, eh?
>
>Prseumed stupid in this case, more like.

Until you've heard the facts, not some garbled reporting of
pseudo-facts, you have no idea.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:39:33 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <4369ab72.7090168@news.virgin.net>, at 11:14:55 on Sun, 30
>Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
>remarked:
>>>>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
>>>>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
>>>>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
>>>>and lost.  Just like you.
>>>
>>>Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
>>>green light.
>>
>>Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
>>when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
>>another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
>>boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?
>
>Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
>feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading. The comparison, therefore, if
perfectly valid.  Unless she is completely stupid, she will have known
full well that she didn't pay to get on the bus.

Green light = You've paid; carry on boarding.
Red light = You've not paid (for whatever reason); re-touch or query
with driver.
No response = You've not paid; re-touch or query with driver.

It's hardly rocket science, is it?

>(Does anyone else think it's odd that tube gates "acknowledge" the
>receipt of a paper ticket by putting on a red, or is it orange, light?
>So passengers begin to associate success with that.)
>
>>>Presumed innocent until the case has come to court, eh?
>>
>>Prseumed stupid in this case, more like.
>
>Until you've heard the facts, not some garbled reporting of
>pseudo-facts, you have no idea.

On the contrary, I am basing my judgement on what was so obviously
_not_ reported in the inevitably pro-(this particular)passenger,
anti-TfL version in the 'Standard': "[She] insisted she had passed her
card over the reader and neither the machine nor the driver warned her
that the payment had apparently failed."  What is absent, of course,
is any claim that the machine acknowledged a successful payment, which
would probably be a bluff to far, even for her.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
	http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <43652a9b.5744084@news.virgin.net>, at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
> Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
> remarked:
>
> >>>>>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
> >>>>>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
> >>>>>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
> >>>>>and lost.  Just like you.
> >>>>
> >>>>Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
> >>>>green light.
> >>>
> >>>Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
> >>>when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
> >>>another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
> >>>boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?
> >>
> >>Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
> >>feedback to the passenger.
> >
> >Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
> >signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
> >acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.
>
> What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep, a
> Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
> these, then why are you doubting her.

If I place my Oyster on a reader and I don't get a green light, I'll
query it with the driver, regardless of whether it turns red, bleeps
the theme tune to 'Watchdog', or makes a cup of tea. What I won't do is
think, "Woo-hoo! Free journey!" and continue boarding.  I doubt this
woman's story, because there are more holes in it than Swiss cheese.
She doggedly claims that the reader didn't tell her her card had
failed, but since she hasn't claimed that it indicated that it had been
successfully read, then obviously it didn't, and she knows it.  Or is
totally stupid.

In message <43652a9b.5744084@news.virgin.net>, at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
remarked:

>>>>>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
>>>>>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
>>>>>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
>>>>>and lost.  Just like you.
>>>>
>>>>Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
>>>>green light.
>>>
>>>Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
>>>when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
>>>another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
>>>boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?
>>
>>Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
>>feedback to the passenger.
>
>Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
>signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
>acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.

What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep, a
Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
these, then why are you doubting her.

Had she been paying the driver, she would have got a different kind of
failure notification - like still having the money in her hand, for
example.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
>In message <43652a9b.5744084@news.virgin.net>, at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
>Oct 2005, Nick Cooper <nick.cooper-625DETONATOR@DETONATORvirgin.net>
>remarked:
>
>>>>>>No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
>>>>>>Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
>>>>>>giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it.  She gambled
>>>>>>and lost.  Just like you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
>>>>>green light.
>>>>
>>>>Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
>>>>when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
>>>>another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
>>>>boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?
>>>
>>>Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
>>>feedback to the passenger.
>>
>>Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
>>signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
>>acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.
>
>What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep,
>a Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
>these, then why are you doubting her.
>
>Had she been paying the driver, she would have got a different kind of
>failure notification - like still having the money in her hand, for
>example.

 From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

    "+ Touch in and touch out.  At Tube and National Rail stations,
    always touch your Oyster card on a card reader at the start and
    end of your journey .....

   "On Tube, DLR and National Rail, card readers normally show an
    orange light.  When you touch your Oyster card on the card reader
    the light should turn green.  If it doesn't, try again.  If you
    still fail to get a green light, or if it turns red, see a member
    of staff.  If none are available at the start of your journey, see
    a member of staff as soon as possible.

   "+ Touch in.  On buses, always touch your Oyster card flat on the
   card reader by the driver at the front of the bus as you board or,
   where indicated on bendy-buses, on the reader by any door.  On
   buses with conductors, when asked, you must touch your Oyster
   card on the card reader on his/her ticket machine.

   "If the driver/conductor advises you that there is a problem with
    your Oyster card, you will need to pay a cash fare for your
    journey either on the bus or, where cash fares are not accepted
    on the bus, from the nearest roadside ticket machine.  You should
    then contact the Oyster helpline on 0845 330 9876 for assistance
    on what to do next."

Perhaps they should have said something about the passenger's
responsibility to check the lights when using an Oyster on a bus.
But they clearly haven't.  They mention only the driver's
responsibility to check.
--
Iain Archer

Iain Archer wrote:
>
>  From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

What's the full URL of that file?  I can't see it in the menus in the
"Tickets and Oyster" part of the TfL site.

It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster holders.
I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto top-up, and was
surprised that it arrived through the post with no guidance on its use
whatever.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
>Iain Archer wrote:
>>
>>  From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:
>
>What's the full URL of that file?  I can't see it in the menus in the
>"Tickets and Oyster" part of the TfL site.
>

Knew I should have quoted it in full.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/downloads/Your-guide-to-
Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf

at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/oyster/guide.asp


>It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster holders.
>I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto top-up, and was
>surprised that it arrived through the post with no guidance on its use
>whatever.

I've recently done the same thing.  Even with the on-line help pages,
etc, I still had to seek their email advice about getting my auto top-up
initialised at Wimbledon without including a journey, and then a 1.10
refund afterward.  And the more I got into it, the more klunks and gaps
in their information and other systems seemed to turn up for me to ask
or write about.
--
Iain Archer            To email, please use Reply-To address

Iain Archer wrote:
> Richard J. wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
>> Iain Archer wrote:
>
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/downloads/Your-guide-to-
> Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf
>
> at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/oyster/guide.asp
>
>
>> It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster
>> holders. I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto
>> top-up, and was surprised that it arrived through the post with no
>> guidance on its use whatever.
>
> I've recently done the same thing.  Even with the on-line help
> pages, etc, I still had to seek their email advice about getting my
> auto top-up initialised at Wimbledon without including a journey,
> and then a 1.10 refund afterward.  And the more I got into it, the
> more klunks and gaps in their information and other systems seemed
> to turn up for me to ask or write about.

I had a similar problem after a ticket clerk at Turnham Green insisted
that activating Auto Top-up would cause me to be charged £20 immediately
even though I had £20 already on the card.  I had to send an email to
get a confirmation that that was wrong.  But, like you, I still had to
activate Auto Top-up at a gate and then get £1.10 manually refunded
after more misunderstandings at the ticket counter.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message <1130763915.632271.318910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
nick.cooper-625delete@virgin.net writes
> She doggedly claims that the reader didn't tell her her card had
>failed, but since she hasn't claimed that it indicated that it had been
>successfully read, then obviously it didn't, and she knows it.  Or is
>totally stupid.
If you're in a long queue and the bus is filling fast with a lot of
people with both travel cards and oysters it can be misleading at times
and the little green light can easily be obscured by another passenger.
--
Clive

<snip>

Thinking of this, what legislation allows them to take someone to court
over non-payment of bus fares?
Judging by the OP, it seems like a criminal rather than a civil matter.
--
Joe Patrick
Railways Online - for GB railway news, information & photos
http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk

Iain Archer wrote:
>
> Knew I should have quoted it in full.
>
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/downloads/Your-guide-to-
> Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf
>
> at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/oyster/guide.asp
>
>

Is it necessary to do something when interchanging between LU services
outside the zone in which the travel card is valid?

For instance if I were travelling from Wembley Park (zone 4) to Sudbury
Hill (zone 4) via Rayners Lane (zone 5) and had a zones 1-4 card would I
need to touch my Oyster to something at Rayners lane.

The guide cited by Iain states:

"When transferring between Tube, DLR, Tramlink or National Rail
services, always touch your Oyster card on a card reader at the
interchange station or on the tram stop platform before boarding."

however in this case I would not be transferring between Tube and any of
these other modes of transport so it would not seem to be required.  A
view supported by the fact I've never been able to find any interchange
touch points at Rayners Lane.  However I seem to recall hearing
otherwise somewhere.





--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.