🚀 go-pugleaf

dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>
> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons
> and some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
> go'!

That's crazy!  It's not pay as you go, it's pay *before* you go.
Pre-Pay was a good name which accurately described the concept of paying
in advance for a number of journeys, as distinct from paying for each
journey in cash, which *is* pay-as-you-go.  I suppose they're trying to
hide the fact that they will get lots of money up front, but in changing
the name they have just made the whole Oyster concept more difficult to
understand.  I feel an e-mail to TfL coming on.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Richard J." <rjnews@blueukder.co.yon> wrote in message
news:LvO7f.138140$G8.105316@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>>
>> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons
>> and some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
>> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
>> go'!
>
> That's crazy!  It's not pay as you go, it's pay *before* you go.

Isn't that how pay-as-you-go Mobile Phone's work then?

Mike

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Mike Hudgell wrote:

> "Richard J." <rjnews@blueukder.co.yon> wrote in message
> news:LvO7f.138140$G8.105316@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>
>> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>>
>>> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons and
>>> some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
>>> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
>>> go'!
>>
>> That's crazy!  It's not pay as you go, it's pay *before* you go.
>
> Isn't that how pay-as-you-go Mobile Phone's work then?

Exactly. 'Pay as you go' has ceased to be a descriptive phrase, and is
now, thanks to mobile phones, an atomic symbol - a single word with spaces
in, essentially - which means 'you put credit on it ahead of time and then
spend that credit as you go'. I wouldn't be surprised if key-operated
electricity meters started being called pay-as-you-go as well.

tom

--
Would you like to remember more?

<dmncf@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:1130342809.370149.326530@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>
> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons and
> some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
> go'!
>
> Dominic
>

Can somebody explain how capping works if you have a 'pay as you go' 
oystercard ? If you only used the buses but then suddenly had to jump on a 
tube, will you be charged again until you reach the next capping level, and 
then so on if you end up going through more than one zone ?

At what point would it be better to buy a 1 day travelcard instead of 
relying on the capping ?

Thanks.



-- 

==============================
Click it or not, it's not up to me.
But spondulas for you, if you wanna see:-
http://tinyurl.com/7m3nr 

"Richard J." <rjnews@blueukder.co.yon> wrote in message
news:LvO7f.138140$G8.105316@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>>
>> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons
>> and some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
>> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
>> go'!
>
> That's crazy!  It's not pay as you go, it's pay *before* you go.
> Pre-Pay was a good name which accurately described the concept of paying
> in advance for a number of journeys, as distinct from paying for each
> journey in cash, which *is* pay-as-you-go.  I suppose they're trying to
> hide the fact that they will get lots of money up front, but in changing
> the name they have just made the whole Oyster concept more difficult to
> understand.  I feel an e-mail to TfL coming on.
> --
> Richard J.
> (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Oh come on Richard. 'Pay As You Go' is common parlance now thanks to the
popular Mobile Phone payment mechanism.

Oyster Pre-Pay is exactly the same concept as mobile phone PAYG. It makes
absolute sense for TfL to describe it using a term that the general public
(excepting yourself perhaps) are totally comfortable with.

Colin

"EK" <emkerslake@tiscali.co.uk>typed


> Can somebody explain how capping works if you have a 'pay as you go'
> oystercard ? If you only used the buses but then suddenly had to jump on a
> tube, will you be charged again until you reach the next capping level, and
> then so on if you end up going through more than one zone ?

If you jump on a tube, you should get capped at the lowest appropriate
One Day Travelcard rate. (Zone 2-6, 1-6, 1-4 or whatever) Before that,
you'd get capped at the level for a One Day Bus Pass.

> At what point would it be better to buy a 1 day travelcard instead of
> relying on the capping ?

As soon as there is any chance you might need to use National Rail, on
which Oyster is, by and large, not valid.

--
Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.

> Can somebody explain how capping works if you have a 'pay as you go'
> oystercard ? If you only used the buses but then suddenly had to jump on a tube, will you be
> charged again until you reach the next capping level, and then so on if you end up going through
> more than one zone ?

Yes exactly like that. If you change mode or travel through more zones or
travel at different times the caps will change and your previous journeys count
towards the new cap.

> At what point would it be better to buy a 1 day travelcard instead of relying on the capping ?

At the point you know you want to use National Rail as capping only works
on a select few routes. Otherwise the cap will be 50p less than the paper
travelcard from 2006.

There will be no benefit at all in buying a paper bus pass as it will be priced
50p more than a one day bus pass and you will loose the flexibility of being
able to jump on the tube and have it count towards your tube cap.

Colin wrote:
> "Richard J." <rjnews@blueukder.co.yon> wrote in message
> news:LvO7f.138140$G8.105316@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>
>>
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>>>
>>> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons
>>> and some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
>>> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as
>>> you
>>> go'!
>>
>> That's crazy!  It's not pay as you go, it's pay *before* you go.
>> Pre-Pay was a good name which accurately described the concept of
>> paying in advance for a number of journeys, as distinct from paying
>> for each journey in cash, which *is* pay-as-you-go.  I suppose
>> they're trying to hide the fact that they will get lots of money up
>> front, but in changing the name they have just made the whole
>> Oyster concept more difficult to understand.  I feel an e-mail to
>> TfL coming on.
>
> Oh come on Richard. 'Pay As You Go' is common parlance now thanks
> to the popular Mobile Phone payment mechanism.
>
> Oyster Pre-Pay is exactly the same concept as mobile phone PAYG. It
> makes absolute sense for TfL to describe it using a term that the
> general public (excepting yourself perhaps) are totally comfortable
> with.

Well, I must admit that the inconvenience of PAYG mobile phones is not
something that I have to put up with, having an Orange "Virgin EQ"
contract with zero rental and my (relatively few) call charges paid
monthly by direct debit.  Sadly, Orange no longer offer this.

But I still feel that PAYG is a daft term for Oyster, since TfL want it
to be a replacement for cash fares which really are PAYG and don't have
a £3 initial charge.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 26 Oct 2005 09:06:49 -0700, dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>
>The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons and
>some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
>disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
>go'!


And a name change equates to a disappearance just how?
There are issues with Oyster.  But that ain't one of them.  Save your
ammunition

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:51:25 +0100, "EK" <emkerslake@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:

>Can somebody explain how capping works if you have a 'pay as you go'
>oystercard ? If you only used the buses but then suddenly had to jump on a
>tube, will you be charged again until you reach the next capping level, and
>then so on if you end up going through more than one zone ?
>
>At what point would it be better to buy a 1 day travelcard instead of
>relying on the capping ?

If you stick to busses, you are capped at the price of a one-day bus
pass.  If you use tube as well, you are capped at the price of a
one-day travelcard.  Or slightly less - isn't there a small discount?

You need to buy a paper TC if you need to use National Rail within th
travelcard zone.  NR are dragging their heels at implementing oyster
pre-pay.

Laurence Payne <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com>typed

> If you stick to busses, you are capped at the price of a one-day bus
> pass.  If you use tube as well, you are capped at the price of a
> one-day travelcard.  Or slightly less - isn't there a small discount?

50p from 2/1/2006.

> You need to buy a paper TC if you need to use National Rail within th
> travelcard zone.  NR are dragging their heels at implementing oyster
> pre-pay.

--
Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.

<dmncf@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1130342809.370149.326530@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>
> The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons and
> some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
> disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
> go'!
>
> Dominic
>

Does anyone know the URL for the fares north of Moor Park for 2006 ?

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:51:25 +0100, "EK" <emkerslake@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:

>At what point would it be better to buy a 1 day travelcard instead of
>relying on the capping ?

If you:

- wish to travel on National Rail (except certain routes where pre-pay
  is valid)
- are the holder of a Railcard or Gold Card, or are travelling with
  someone who is, if you can buy a discounted Travelcard, and if it
  would cost less than the pre-pay cap would be
- want the daily charge to cover journeys starting between 0000 and
  0429 the following day (as opposed to 0430 and 0429 the following
  day)
- are not travelling via Zone 1, but are making at least 1 Tube
  journey that would be charged as if you did
- often forget to touch in
- have an unregistered Oyster card and often forget to touch out

On 26 Oct 2005 09:06:49 -0700, dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>
>The Family Travelcard, Tube Carnet, Single zone Travelcard seasons and
>some New Deal tickets are being withdrawn. But a less obvious
>disappearance is Oyster Prepay. It's now referred to as 'pay as you
>go'!

The fares leaflet also includes something completely new that's
interesting and doesn't seem to have been publicised. Currently,
through tickets are available between Tube/DLR and NR, but they are
charged at the same price as buying a separate ticket for each leg.
However, the PDF introduces a new concept of "Tube/DLR – Train fares":

"Tube/DLR – Train fares cover through journeys
between the Tube/DLR and National Rail and
are the maximum that you will pay for a single
journey in the London zonal area."

The tickets are zonal singles (with a return costing twice the single
fare). Although they are more expensive than Tube singles (and
*considerably* more expensive than pre-pay fares), for the first time,
there are singles available which are "blind" as to whether the
journey covers Tube/DLR, NR, or both. Is this the first step towards
the harmonisation of rail fares across modes in London, and the
ubiquitous validity of pre-pay?

> The fares leaflet also includes something completely new that's
> interesting and doesn't seem to have been publicised. Currently,
> through tickets are available between Tube/DLR and NR, but they are
> charged at the same price as buying a separate ticket for each leg.
> However, the PDF introduces a new concept of "Tube/DLR - Train fares":
>
> "Tube/DLR - Train fares cover through journeys
> between the Tube/DLR and National Rail and
> are the maximum that you will pay for a single
> journey in the London zonal area."
>
> The tickets are zonal singles (with a return costing twice the single
> fare). Although they are more expensive than Tube singles (and
> *considerably* more expensive than pre-pay fares), for the first time,
> there are singles available which are "blind" as to whether the
> journey covers Tube/DLR, NR, or both. Is this the first step towards
> the harmonisation of rail fares across modes in London, and the
> ubiquitous validity of pre-pay?

There is a note saying: "and are the *maximum* that you will pay for a
single journey in the London zonal area"

What does this mean? Are they priced at the highest possible rail fare
they could find in order to make them valid to any rail destination in the
respective zones?

The implication is for some routes these will represent bad value if the
rail companies fare (+ the tube journey) is much less than the combined
ticket.

Is there any mechanism to protect the customer from buying the more
expensive ticket?

Richard J. wrote:
> But I still feel that PAYG is a daft term for Oyster, since TfL want it
> to be a replacement for cash fares which really are PAYG and don't have
> a £3 initial charge.

Depends how much you value your time.

Anyone more senior than a kitchen cleaner will spend £3 of their time a week
queuing to buy cash singles.

Raoul.

> But I still feel that PAYG is a daft term for Oyster, since TfL want it
> to be a replacement for cash fares which really are PAYG and don't have
> a £3 initial charge.

Perhaps cash fares will be rebranded as "Pay through the nose" from January.

The £3 deposit can be recouped from two journeys from next year so its hardly
a moot point.

Cash - 2 x Zone 2 (£3) singles = £6

Oyster - 2 x Zone 2 (£1) prepay = £2 (+ £3 deposit) = £5

Not only recouped but a pound saved.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:03:31 +0100, "TKD" <tkd@hotmail.com> wrote:

>There is a note saying: "and are the *maximum* that you will pay for a
>single journey in the London zonal area"
>
>What does this mean? Are they priced at the highest possible rail fare
>they could find in order to make them valid to any rail destination in the
>respective zones?

*looks for a counterexample*

Harrow & Wealdstone to East Croydon (on the direct service): Standard
Day Single £6.00; Cheap Day Single £3.60. Next year the Tube/DLR -
Train fare will be £3.40.

I would take "and are the maximum that you will pay..." to mean that
the (NR) ticket offices at H&W or EC would sell you this ticket
instead of the NR singles, as it's cheaper, even though the journey
doesn't include a Tube/DLR leg.

>The implication is for some routes these will represent bad value if the
>rail companies fare (+ the tube journey) is much less than the combined
>ticket.

Perhaps the ticket office would sell an "old style" combined ticket in
this case.

On 26 Oct 2005 09:06:49 -0700, dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>
One group which, as far as I can see, is particularly hit by the new
structure is that of pensioners who can use their Freedom Pass after 9
a.m. but need to pay the high cash rates when traveling to earlier
hospital and other medical appointments.

uktranslon@myob.btinternet.co.uk said:

> One group which, as far as I can see, is particularly hit by the new
> structure is that of pensioners who can use their Freedom Pass after 9
> a.m. but need to pay the high cash rates when traveling to earlier
> hospital and other medical appointments.

Cash?  There's nothing to stop a pensioner from also having a prepay
Oyster for the morning peak.

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:07:59 +0100, uktranslon@myob.btinternet.co.uk
wrote:

>One group which, as far as I can see, is particularly hit by the new
>structure is that of pensioners who can use their Freedom Pass after 9
>a.m. but need to pay the high cash rates when traveling to earlier
>hospital and other medical appointments.

Prepay Oysters are available to crumblies too, I believe.

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:15:45 +0100, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

>>One group which, as far as I can see, is particularly hit by the new
>>structure is that of pensioners who can use their Freedom Pass after 9
>>a.m. but need to pay the high cash rates when traveling to earlier
>>hospital and other medical appointments.
>
>Prepay Oysters are available to crumblies too, I believe.

Not to mention the highly developed system of refunding travel
expenses to medical appointments for those who need it.

That'll teach you to play an "emotion" card  :-)

In message <2n20m1tb2lu0uriuljbvdm988uqfcfi7ou@4ax.com>, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> writes
>You need to buy a paper TC if you need to use National Rail within th
>travelcard zone.  NR are dragging their heels at implementing oyster
>pre-pay.
On the Parliamentary channel the other day was London assembly questions
to Ken Livingston who said that NR had been offered full installation of
oyster readers in the GLA but didn't want to know, so now was
considering taking all the railways in the GLA under the TfL umbrella.
--
Clive

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:15:45 +0100, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:07:59 +0100, uktranslon@myob.btinternet.co.uk
> wrote:
>
>>One group which, as far as I can see, is particularly hit by the new
>>structure is that of pensioners who can use their Freedom Pass after 9
>>a.m. but need to pay the high cash rates when traveling to earlier
>>hospital and other medical appointments.
>
> Prepay Oysters are available to crumblies too, I believe.

Indeed, I have a Freedom Pass but also have prepay oyster for early
journeys, very useful, plus I am not too crumbly just yet :)


--
Martin

<uktranslon@myob.btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2vb4m15pji5d81e426le2drvbscjbbqmv6@4ax.com...
> On 26 Oct 2005 09:06:49 -0700, dmncf@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>>http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/fares-tickets/fares-2006-leaflet.pdf
>>
> One group which, as far as I can see, is particularly hit by the new
> structure is that of pensioners who can use their Freedom Pass after 9
> a.m. but need to pay the high cash rates when traveling to earlier
> hospital and other medical appointments.

I know of at least three people with Freedom passes who also hold
Oyster Cards and use them for journeys before 9am. Two of them even
have auto-top up activated.

If you are sufficiently disabled they give you a freedom pass encoded to
allow travel before 9am anyway.

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:54:37 +0100, Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On the Parliamentary channel the other day was London assembly questions
>to Ken Livingston who said that NR had been offered full installation of
>oyster readers in the GLA but didn't want to know, so now was
>considering taking all the railways in the GLA under the TfL umbrella.

What "Red Ken" neglects to mention is that Oyster isn't actually
compatible with the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO)
specification, nor can the "APTIS replacement" Ticket Office machines
handle Oyster.

Members of ITSO include the "Big 5" bus companies (Arriva, First,
Go-Ahead, NatEx and Stagecoach), ATOC, various ticketing system
manufacturers (Almex, Ascom, ATOS Origin and Cubic Transportation), most
of the PTEs, BT, BemroseBooth (who supply most of the ticket blanks to
the TOCs) and the Department for Transport.

So it's not entirely unreasonable for the train companies to be
unwilling to spend a not unsubstantial sum of money installing gates
and/or Oyster validators at all the stations in the zonal area if
there's no guarantee that the same hardware will be capable of accepting
a potential future *national* smartcard system, as at the end of the
day, that money will have to come from their passengers, either directly
through the farebox, or via increased subsidy from the taxpayer.

Those are my thoughts on the matter, anyway...

Cheers,

Barry

--
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:59:50 +0100, Barry Salter
<possspam@blackhole.southie.me.uk> wrote:

>So it's not entirely unreasonable for the train companies to be
>unwilling to spend a not unsubstantial sum of money installing gates
>and/or Oyster validators at all the stations in the zonal area if
>there's no guarantee that the same hardware will be capable of accepting
>a potential future *national* smartcard system, as at the end of the
>day, that money will have to come from their passengers, either directly
>through the farebox, or via increased subsidy from the taxpayer.

Okay, but (IIUC) it's not their money that would be spent, it's the
GLA's.

And they don't seem to have a problem with having the validators
installed at every *gated* station within the zones - why the
difference? It must be something to do with pre-pay, surely?

asdf wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:59:50 +0100, Barry Salter
> <possspam@blackhole.southie.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> So it's not entirely unreasonable for the train companies to be
>> unwilling to spend a not unsubstantial sum of money installing gates
>> and/or Oyster validators at all the stations in the zonal area if
>> there's no guarantee that the same hardware will be capable of accepting
>> a potential future *national* smartcard system, as at the end of the
>> day, that money will have to come from their passengers, either directly
>> through the farebox, or via increased subsidy from the taxpayer.
>
> Okay, but (IIUC) it's not their money that would be spent, it's the
> GLA's.
>
> And they don't seem to have a problem with having the validators
> installed at every *gated* station within the zones - why the
> difference? It must be something to do with pre-pay, surely?

According to this news article, SWT are working on the expansion of
Prepay onto a couple of its routes for early next year as a trial:

http://tinyurl.com/9j4rm

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Colin wrote:

> Oh come on Richard. 'Pay As You Go' is common parlance now thanks to the
> popular Mobile Phone payment mechanism.
>
> Oyster Pre-Pay is exactly the same concept as mobile phone PAYG. It makes
> absolute sense for TfL to describe it using a term that the general public
> (excepting yourself perhaps) are totally comfortable with.

So if TfL want to make their Oyster product sound like mobile phones,
perhaps they should consider another option whereby you get billed and pay
by direct debit (or credit card) at the end of each month according to your
usage.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:59:50 +0100, Barry Salter
<possspam@blackhole.southie.me.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:54:37 +0100, Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On the Parliamentary channel the other day was London assembly questions
>>to Ken Livingston who said that NR had been offered full installation of
>>oyster readers in the GLA but didn't want to know, so now was
>>considering taking all the railways in the GLA under the TfL umbrella.
>
>What "Red Ken" neglects to mention is that Oyster isn't actually
>compatible with the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO)
>specification, nor can the "APTIS replacement" Ticket Office machines
>handle Oyster.

So? ITSO were nowhere to be found when the Oyster contract was awarded.
They've come up with precisely nothing compared to a working system in
London. The much vaunted Manchester smartcard has yet to materialise
into a working scheme. There was a window of opportunity where ITSO
compatibility could have been built into Oyster if ITSO have known what
it wanted. AFAIK it didn't and Oyster could not wait so that opportunity
was lost.

Old APTIS did work with Oyster because my local station had it. The TOCs
and ATOC have been pitiful when it comes to trying to work with TfL / LT
on Oyster. I should know - I was involved in the early discussions and
to describe the views as surreal is an understatement. They are now in
the situation of being overtaken by events - technically and politically
given DfT's likely decision to grant Ken more control over London rail
services.

>Members of ITSO include the "Big 5" bus companies (Arriva, First,
>Go-Ahead, NatEx and Stagecoach), ATOC, various ticketing system
>manufacturers (Almex, Ascom, ATOS Origin and Cubic Transportation), most
>of the PTEs, BT, BemroseBooth (who supply most of the ticket blanks to
>the TOCs) and the Department for Transport.

And all of the manufacturers barring Cubic have sat and moaned rather
than try to work with Cubic (part of Transys) to develop compatible
equipment. Cubic have developed readers that can deal with more than one
form of card and the Oyster system contract recognises the requirement
for other cards to be read, written to and for data to move around
between different card management systems.

>So it's not entirely unreasonable for the train companies to be
>unwilling to spend a not unsubstantial sum of money installing gates
>and/or Oyster validators at all the stations in the zonal area if
>there's no guarantee that the same hardware will be capable of accepting
>a potential future *national* smartcard system, as at the end of the
>day, that money will have to come from their passengers, either directly
>through the farebox, or via increased subsidy from the taxpayer.

As the TOCs don't have to spend anything I fail to see why that is being
quoted as an issue. This is all covered under existing agreements for
Travelcard, Through Ticketing and ticket technology changes. They knew
this years ago. They have done nothing apart from prevaricate about
whether they might lost out on some revenue if people switch
technologies or products. Perhaps it would have been more sensible for
them to actively participate in the debate and subsequent development of
Oyster so that their requirements were built in from day 1. Instead (I'm
convinced) they are going to be forced to accept something they have
little control over.

All very disappointing but let's hope someone can get their act together
to secure more effective ticket product integration.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

> What "Red Ken" neglects to mention is that Oyster isn't actually
> compatible with the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO)
> specification, nor can the "APTIS replacement" Ticket Office machines
> handle Oyster.

You can hardly blame the mayor for something that was decided before his
job was even created.

And in a similar vein you can hardly blame the people behind Oyster Card
for misplacing their crystal ball in regards to future card standards and ticket
issuing equipment of third parties who do not disclose the information in the
first place.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:17:57 +0100, "TKD" <tkd@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> But I still feel that PAYG is a daft term for Oyster, since TfL want it
>> to be a replacement for cash fares which really are PAYG and don't have
>> a £3 initial charge.
>
>Perhaps cash fares will be rebranded as "Pay through the nose" from January.
>
>The £3 deposit can be recouped from two journeys from next year so its hardly
>a moot point.
>
>Cash - 2 x Zone 2 (£3) singles = £6
>
>Oyster - 2 x Zone 2 (£1) prepay = £2 (+ £3 deposit) = £5
>
>Not only recouped but a pound saved.

A very basic fact the anti-Oyster brigade seem incapable of
understanding!
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
	http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

Barry Salter wrote:

> What "Red Ken" neglects to mention is that Oyster isn't actually
> compatible with the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO)
> specification, nor can the "APTIS replacement" Ticket Office machines
> handle Oyster.

Surely just having an extra piece of equipment in the booking office
(similiar to that used by pass agents) for Oyster products would be the
logical way round it?


--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

asdf <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
	[...]
> Harrow & Wealdstone to East Croydon (on the direct service): Standard
> Day Single £6.00; Cheap Day Single £3.60. Next year the Tube/DLR -
> Train fare will be £3.40.
>
> I would take "and are the maximum that you will pay..." to mean that
> the (NR) ticket offices at H&W or EC would sell you this ticket
> instead of the NR singles, as it's cheaper, even though the journey
> doesn't include a Tube/DLR leg.
>
> >The implication is for some routes these will represent bad value if
the
> >rail companies fare (+ the tube journey) is much less than the
combined
> >ticket.
>
> Perhaps the ticket office would sell an "old style" combined ticket
in
> this case.

For a single this is unlikely but since in your example even an Z1-6
Travelcard is less than twice a £3.40 fare and a CDR is £3.70 (£5.30
using Tube) the ticket office would also have to ask if you were
leaving after 9:30 and if you were coming back today or going elsewhere
in the London area today.

--
Mike D

>> What "Red Ken" neglects to mention is that Oyster isn't actually
>> compatible with the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO)
>> specification, nor can the "APTIS replacement" Ticket Office machines
>> handle Oyster.
>
> Surely just having an extra piece of equipment in the booking office
> (similiar to that used by pass agents) for Oyster products would be the
> logical way round it?

Exactly what they have at Fenchurch Street. When you buy a ticket on Oyster
they use a reader/writer on a counter behind them.

TKD wrote:

> Exactly what they have at Fenchurch Street. When you buy a ticket on Oyster
> they use a reader/writer on a counter behind them.

So there you go. NR stations simply become Pass Agents selling the full
range of Oyster Products. In addition I'm sure an upgrade of the equipment
you see in your friendly newsagent could be applied to sell the full range
of TfL products.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

>>The £3 deposit can be recouped from two journeys from next year so its hardly
>>a moot point.
>>
>>Cash - 2 x Zone 2 (£3) singles = £6
>>
>>Oyster - 2 x Zone 2 (£1) prepay = £2 (+ £3 deposit) = £5
>>
>>Not only recouped but a pound saved.
>
> A very basic fact the anti-Oyster brigade seem incapable of
> understanding!

The *minimum* cash fare of £3 will get the message home.
I don't think people quite understand the implication of it just yet.

>From January just going one stop, even in zone 6, and paying cash
is going to cost £3 (instead of £1 on Oyster). This is a mark-up of 200%.
If this is prominently advertised at the ticket machines and explained
properly by staff surely only the insane would resist migration to Oyster?

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:59:50 +0100, Barry Salter
<possspam@blackhole.southie.me.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:54:37 +0100, Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On the Parliamentary channel the other day was London assembly questions
>>to Ken Livingston who said that NR had been offered full installation of
>>oyster readers in the GLA but didn't want to know, so now was
>>considering taking all the railways in the GLA under the TfL umbrella.
>
>What "Red Ken" neglects to mention is that Oyster isn't actually
>compatible with the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO)
>specification, nor can the "APTIS replacement" Ticket Office machines
>handle Oyster.

Which only matters if the TOCs are going to take up smartcards as a
form of ticket.  IMO smartcards are not passenger friendly form of
ticketing which can just about be tolerated for urban servcies but are
not acceptable for longer journeys.

>Members of ITSO include the "Big 5" bus companies (Arriva, First,
>Go-Ahead, NatEx and Stagecoach), ATOC, various ticketing system
>manufacturers (Almex, Ascom, ATOS Origin and Cubic Transportation), most
>of the PTEs, BT, BemroseBooth (who supply most of the ticket blanks to
>the TOCs) and the Department for Transport.
>
>So it's not entirely unreasonable for the train companies to be
>unwilling to spend a not unsubstantial sum of money installing gates
>and/or Oyster validators at all the stations in the zonal area if
>there's no guarantee that the same hardware will be capable of accepting
>a potential future *national* smartcard system, as at the end of the
>day, that money will have to come from their passengers, either directly
>through the farebox, or via increased subsidy from the taxpayer.

They may agree that smartcards are not the way to go  and have joined
ITSO to keep the authorities quiet
--
Peter Lawrence

Phil Richards wrote:
> So if TfL want to make their Oyster product sound like mobile phones,
> perhaps they should consider another option whereby you get billed and pay
> by direct debit (or credit card) at the end of each month according to your
> usage.

Vastly increases the possibility of fraud and non-payment.

Also means they don't get the money in advance to merrily cream the interest
from.

Raoul.

Raoul wrote:

> Phil Richards wrote:
>> So if TfL want to make their Oyster product sound like mobile phones,
>> perhaps they should consider another option whereby you get billed and pay
>> by direct debit (or credit card) at the end of each month according to your
>> usage.
>
> Vastly increases the possibility of fraud and non-payment.

Amazing how telecom companies and the utilities etc. all manage to handle
regular monthly payments in arrears.

As for non payment, easy, as with mobile phones you don't pay you get cut
off. In the case of Oyster your card becomes deactivated the same way as if
you reported it lost or stolen.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Raoul wrote:
> Richard J. wrote:
>
>> But I still feel that PAYG is a daft term for Oyster, since TfL want it
>> to be a replacement for cash fares which really are PAYG and don't have
>> a £3 initial charge.
>
>
> Depends how much you value your time.
>
> Anyone more senior than a kitchen cleaner will spend £3 of their time a
> week queuing to buy cash singles.
>

Value of time is always a bit of a challenge.  Using your hourly wage is
reasonable enough, although for most people that is really an average
and not a marginal value of time.  It is quite possible that someone who
earns more than that would still be willing to spend the extra time to
save a few pounds - it really depends what else they would be doing with
the time.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

Michael R N Dolbear (me@privacy.net) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

> For a single this is unlikely but since in your example even an Z1-6
> Travelcard is less than twice a £3.40 fare

Look past Zone 6.

For me, a pair of singles is over £3 cheaper than an ODTC - there used to
be an LT card in the middle, but that got pulled.

When is 7DTC capping coming in on Oyster?

Adrian <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote
> Michael R N Dolbear (me@privacy.net) gurgled happily,
>
> > For a single this is unlikely but since in your example even an
Z1-6
> > Travelcard is less than twice a £3.40 fare
>
> Look past Zone 6.
>
> For me, a pair of singles is over £3 cheaper than an ODTC - there
used to
> be an LT card in the middle, but that got pulled.

Not understood. I carried on with the OP's example. If you have a
further example let's see the details.

> When is 7DTC capping coming in on Oyster?

Probably never, the complexities, such as ODTC capping day by day, were
glanced at in a post on this NG.

--
Mike D

Michael R N Dolbear (me@privacy.net) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

>> > For a single this is unlikely but since in your example even an
>> > Z1-6 Travelcard is less than twice a £3.40 fare

>> Look past Zone 6.
>>
>> For me, a pair of singles is over £3 cheaper than an ODTC - there
>> used to be an LT card in the middle, but that got pulled.

> Not understood. I carried on with the OP's example. If you have a
> further example let's see the details.

I'm in Zone B.

Single is £4.60
ODTC is £12.40
7DTC is £45.80

There used to be a thing called an "LT card" that was effectively an ODTC
except for not allowing use of (non-tube-fare) overland trains within the
zones. It was a tenner. It got pulled completely about a year ago.

>> When is 7DTC capping coming in on Oyster?

> Probably never, the complexities, such as ODTC capping day by day, were
> glanced at in a post on this NG.

Shame.

It would be the single biggest killer-app in terms of Oyster functionality
for me. I'm not in town every day - but some weeks I can be in four or five
times - but I don't usually know in advance how many.

Do I start the week with a 7DTC and risk over-paying because I'll only be
in three times?

Do I go for ODTCs and risk over-paying because I'll be in every weekday and
possibly at the weekend?

I doubt I'm unique, but it's magnified because of the ticket cost from
here.

On 31 Oct 2005 19:59:43 GMT, Adrian <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:

>When is 7DTC capping coming in on Oyster?

Likely never. The amount of travel data that you'd need to store to work
out the most cost-effective cap would be enormous, as you'd need more
than a week's worth to work out when to cap at the daily rate, and when
to cap at the weekly.

Cheers,

Barry

--
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

Adrian <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote
> Michael R N Dolbear (me@privacy.net) gurgled happily

> >> > For a single this is unlikely but since in your example even an
> >> > Z1-6 Travelcard is less than twice a £3.40 fare
>
> >> Look past Zone 6.
> >>
> >> For me, a pair of singles is over £3 cheaper than an ODTC - there
> >> used to be an LT card in the middle, but that got pulled.
>
> > Not understood. I carried on with the OP's example. If you have a
> > further example let's see the details.
>
> I'm in Zone B.
>
> Single is £4.60
> ODTC is £12.40
> 7DTC is £45.80
>
> There used to be a thing called an "LT card" that was effectively an
ODTC [...]

The LT card and the ODTC and 7D prices you mention cover peak (before
09:30) travel.
The single fare is the same price 06:30-19:00 so you also need to look
at the "shoppers price" where an ODTC would be cheaper.

Down my way "past zone 6" means NR, so the single might be cheaper
after 09:30 and CDR and CDR+ODTC are also on offer after that time.

--
Mike D

Michael R N Dolbear (me@privacy.net) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

>> I'm in Zone B.
>>
>> Single is £4.60
>> ODTC is £12.40
>> 7DTC is £45.80
>>
>> There used to be a thing called an "LT card" that was effectively an
>> ODTC [...]

> The LT card and the ODTC and 7D prices you mention cover peak (before
> 09:30) travel.

Which is when I tend to go in.

An after-9.30 ODTC is £6.40

> Down my way "past zone 6" means NR

Yes, but we were talking about tube ticket prices. There's four zones
outside Zone 6.

On 2 Nov 2005 02:21:43 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net>
wrote:

>> When is 7DTC capping coming in on Oyster?
>
>Probably never, the complexities, such as ODTC capping day by day, were
>glanced at in a post on this NG.

I'm not impressed by the  "the computers aren't up to it" argument.
But I agree, it probably won't happen.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 12:32:20 +0000, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

>On 2 Nov 2005 02:21:43 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>> When is 7DTC capping coming in on Oyster?
>>
>>Probably never, the complexities, such as ODTC capping day by day, were
>>glanced at in a post on this NG.
>
>I'm not impressed by the  "the computers aren't up to it" argument.
>But I agree, it probably won't happen.

It would make more sense to have an equivalent that works better with
Pre-Pay.  For example, a discount could be offered to those loading
their card with a specific amount of money, perhaps in several
"bands".

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.