🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:13:28 +0800, "*aku_siapa*"
<aku_...@reformasi.com> wrote:

>Lest we forget... The Chechens are only defending themselves!
>Stop trying to justify the atrocities inflicted by the Russians upon these
>brave people.

The courage of the Chechens is not in question.  Their sanity is.

Since winning de facto independence from Russia in 1996 the Chechens
have proved they can neither handle nor do they deserve independence.

Under the ministrations of the Chechen warlords the territory became a
lawless haven for kidnappers and other criminals of various
descriptions.

Then, as if that weren't bad enough, the Muslim fanatics made the
astonishingly stupid mistake of trying to export their "revolution" to
Dagestan, which wanted no part of it.

Given these circumstances, the Russians had no choice but to crush the
Islamists and destroy their territorial ambitions and religious
colonialism.

This they now seem to have done, and instead of buying into
transparent propaganda about Russian "atrocities," reasonable people
everywhere should applaud and support Moscow in its efforts to pacify
Chechnya once and for all.

-Ivan Gowch, go...@hotmail.com

bru>.. hiya have you got any info on the golden years 91-94 before the
brutal russian invasion. especiaily intrested in economics and social
issues.ive got very little but from the sources ive seen they were doing
very well and even better than russia! i heard that yeltsins first invasion
was motivated by nepotism and greed .
*aku_siapa* wrote in message <38a4...@news.tm.net.my>...
>Lest we forget... The Chechens are only defending themselves!
>Stop trying to justify the atrocities inflicted by the Russians upon these
>brave people.
>
>Here is a brief history of Russia's involvement in the North Caucasus
>region, which neighbors the oil-rich Caspian Sea and the former Soviet
>republics of Azerbaijan and Georgia.
>
>1722 - Peter the Great annexes Caspian Sea regions of Dagestan at start of
a
>150-year military campaign to absorb North Caucasus region into Russian
>Empire.
>
>Mid-19th century - Legendary Imam Shamil uses Islam to weld mountain tribes
>of Dagestan and Chechnya into formidable fighting force. His ambition is to
>create a theocratic, Islamic state but he is eventually defeated by
Russia's
>superior numbers and technology.
>
>1917 - Russian revolution brings Communists to power but Islam and
>traditional clan system remain strong in North Caucasus despite persecution
>from atheistic Moscow regime.
>
>1944 - Soviet dictator Josef Stalin deports entire Chechen people and their
>neighbors the Ingush to Central Asia for "collaboration" with German Nazi
>troops. Tens of thousands die.
>
>1957 - Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev allows the Chechens back to the
>Caucasus, setting up the Checheno-Ingush republic.
>
>Oct 1991 - Following the overthrow of local communist ruler Doku Zavgayev,
>Soviet air force general Dzhokhar Dudayev wins a disputed local poll and
>declares Chechnya independent.
>Russia rejects any talk of independence but takes no action against Dudayev
>and allows him to run Chechnya.
>
>
>Dec 1994 - President Boris Yeltsin sends troops to Chechnya to crush the
>independence movement. Tens of thousands, mostly civilians, die in ensuing
>20-month war. The capital, Grozny, is reduced to rubble. Rebels are driven
>to the mountains but are not defeated.
>
>Aug 1996 - Rebels seize Grozny. Moscow signs a truce on August 31 providing
>for a Russian pullout and deferring issue of Chechen independence for five
>years.
>
>Jan 1997 - Former rebel chief of staff, Aslan Maskhadov, a relative
>moderate, wins Chechen presidential election with almost 65 percent of
vote.
>Last Russian troops leave Chechnya.
>
>Jan 1997 - Unidentified kidnappers seize two Russian journalists in
>Chechnya, first in a long series of abductions for ransom money which fuel
>tensions with Moscow and effectively block the reconstruction of the
>shattered economy.
>
>May 12 1997 - Yeltsin and Maskhadov sign peace accord but Chechnya's final
>status still unresolved. Moscow says Chechnya must stay part of Russian
>Federation, albeit with wide autonomy.
>
>September 1998 - Chechen warlords demand the resignation of President
>Maskhadov, saying he is too conciliatory towards Moscow. Maskhadov also
>under pressure from Russia, which says he is failing to combat organized
>criminal gangs whose frequent kidnappings have turned Chechnya into no-go
>zone for outsiders.
>
>July 1999 - Russian troops clash increasingly fiercely with Chechen
fighters
>near Chechnya's border with Dagestan.
>
>Aug 7 1999 - Russian helicopters pound positions held by Islamic militants
>in Dagestan said to have come from Chechnya. Moscow vows firm action to
>dislodge intruders.
>
>Aug 8 - Russian Prime Minister Sergei Stepashin visits Dagestan to discuss
>crisis with local commanders and officials.
>
>Aug 9 - Yeltsin sacks Stepashin and nominates security chief Vladimir Putin
>as Russian prime minister. Stepashin says Russia could lose Dagestan just
as
>it lost Chechnya.
>
>Aug 10 - Islamic fighters declare Dagestan an independent state and call
for
>holy war of liberation against Moscow rule.
>
>Aug 11 - Feared Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev declares he is behind
>Dagestan rebellion and vows to drive Russian "infidels" from whole North
>Caucasus region. Russian officials say 10 federal troops have died and 27
>more wounded so far.
>
>Aug 12 - President Yeltsin says he is confident of victory over the rebels.
>Warplanes and artillery continue to pound the rebels' positions as more men
>and supplies arrive in Dagestan.
>Aug 13 - Russian Acting Prime Minister Vladimir Putin says an assault has
>begun to drive the rebels out of their mountain strongholds and that they
>would be hit everywhere, even in bases in Chechnya.
>
>Aug 14 - Russia says at least 200 guerrillas have been killed in the
>fighting and puts Russian losses at 14.
>The rebels, via a site on the Internet, say they have killed 130 Russian
>soldiers and officers, destroyed nine helicopters and shot down one fighter
>jet.
>
>Aug 15 - Chechnya declares month-long state of emergency, from August 16 to
>September 16, including a curfew and ban on all media expect state
>television, saying it must be ready for acts of provocation by Russia.
>
>from: http://www.foxsports.com/
>
>

Yeah, must be real "brave" to try to invade a Russian republic after gaining
independence. What a joke!

I heard Russia wanted Chechnya becuase of oil.
It was reported Chechnya provide 20% of Soviet oil export during the
communist regime.
Any one can confirm this?

Ivan Gowch <go...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38a4c3a4.7208390@news.xe.net...
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:13:28 +0800, "*aku_siapa*"
> <aku_...@reformasi.com> wrote:
>
> >Lest we forget... The Chechens are only defending themselves!
> >Stop trying to justify the atrocities inflicted by the Russians upon
these
> >brave people.
>
> The courage of the Chechens is not in question.  Their sanity is.
>
> Since winning de facto independence from Russia in 1996 the Chechens
> have proved they can neither handle nor do they deserve independence.
>
> Under the ministrations of the Chechen warlords the territory became a
> lawless haven for kidnappers and other criminals of various
> descriptions.
>
> Then, as if that weren't bad enough, the Muslim fanatics made the
> astonishingly stupid mistake of trying to export their "revolution" to
> Dagestan, which wanted no part of it.
>
> Given these circumstances, the Russians had no choice but to crush the
> Islamists and destroy their territorial ambitions and religious
> colonialism.
>
> This they now seem to have done, and instead of buying into
> transparent propaganda about Russian "atrocities," reasonable people
> everywhere should applaud and support Moscow in its efforts to pacify
> Chechnya once and for all.
>
> -Ivan Gowch, go...@hotmail.com

*aku_siapa* <aku_...@reformasi.com> wrote in message
news:38a4fb0e.0@news.tm.net.my...
> Lest we forget... The Chechens are only defending themselves!
> Stop trying to justify the atrocities inflicted by the Russians upon these
> brave people.

Moscow cracks down on media
Crisis in Chechnya: special report
Russia: special report

Ian Traynor in Moscow
Saturday January 29, 2000
The Guardian

The Russian authorities have arrested a journalist who worked to expose the
suffering wrought by the Chechnya war, accusing him of joining the
guerrillas in the Caucasus.

The arrest came as the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin, yesterday stoked the
fires of a new Russian militarism and nationalism by lashing out at "all
sorts of scum" who were bent on tearing Russia to pieces and bringing it to
its knees.

"Throughout the entire history of our country, it has always been that it
only takes Russia to become weaker for all sorts of scum to pop up and try
to beat our country, tear it to pieces, and force it to its knees," Mr Putin
said. "No one has ever succeeded, nor will they ever, because simple Russian
people have always stood in the way."

Russian intelligence sources yesterday told the Interfax news agency that
Andrei Babitsky, a reporter for the US-funded Radio Liberty who had been
missing for 12 days, had been arrested in Chechnya and faced charges of
belonging to an illegal armed group.

Russian RTR state television confirmed the report, quoting Oleg Aksyonov, an
interior ministry spokesman, as saying Mr Babitsky was being held in
Chechnya because he lacked the proper military accreditation to work in the
war zone.

Another leading Moscow journalist, Aleksandr Khinshteyn, who specialises in
investigating sleaze in the government, has gone into hiding to avoid being
taken to a psychiatric clinic by the police, who want him detained for
alleged driving licence offences.

A couple of hundred journalists and human rights activists demonstrated
yesterday outside the police ministry in Moscow to protest against the
hounding of Mr Khinshteyn, an investigative television and newspaper
reporter.

The press crackdown by forces under the former KGB agent Mr Putin, and the
reversion to the old Soviet practice of dispatching dissident voices to
psychiatric clinics, are sending ripples of fear through Moscow's
independent media.

"Today they want to send us to the asylum, tomorrow they'll be closing down
the newspapers," said Pavel Gusev, the editor of Moscow's bestselling
newspaper, Moskovsky Komsomolets, said.

Mr Babitsky has courted great personal risk by spending weeks under Russian
bombardment in Grozny and elsewhere in Chechnya during the four-month
conflict. He is also a veteran of the past Chechen war of 1994-96.

On Wednesday, Sergey Yastrzhembsky, the Russian spokesman on Chechnya, said
that Mr Babitsky's disappearance proved that the Russian authorities could
not guarantee the safety of journalists working in Chechnya.

Oleg Panfilov, head of the Glasnost Fund monitoring media freedom, disclosed
yesterday that Mr Babitsky was being held by Russian troops in a cellar in
Urus-Martan, south of Grozny.

"The generals will go to any lengths to prevent journalists from seeing the
present war and its consequences," he said. "The detention is absolutely
illegal." The reporter could be jailed for five years if found guilty of
joining the Chechen guerrillas.

Earlier this week Vladimir Kozin, a foreign ministry official, urged "more
decisive and concrete action to create an information blockade for western
journalists undertaking subversive work on Chechnya territory".

The World Association of Newspapers has just written to Mr Putin to point
out that the killing of 11 journalists last year in Russia made the country
the most dangerous place in Europe for the media.

"We remain seriously concerned at the appalling level of danger facing
members of the press. Such violence fosters a climate of fear that inhibits
journalistic investigation and promotes self-censorship," the letter said.
"Independent journalists covering election campaigns reportedly remain at
greatest risk."

Mr Khinshteyn has repeatedly sought to investigate allegations of corruption
made against Boris Berezovsky, the millionaire Kremlin insider, and his
ally, Vladimir Rushailo, the interior minister.

� Copyright Guardian Media Group plc. 2000

"Ken!!!" wrote:

> whatever it is, chechnya probably mismanaged it to hell by the time
> the russians came in...

Probably. Probably not.

>
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:08:48 +0800, " beng" <beng@phua.chu.kang>
> wrote:
>
> >I heard Russia wanted Chechnya becuase of oil.
> >It was reported Chechnya provide 20% of Soviet oil export during the
> >communist regime.
> >Any one can confirm this?
>

Ultimately, history will decide who was right and wrong, but I know one
thing.  As a country, if you are going to have a war, you should go win the
damn thing.  Let all the hand-wringers bitch and cry if they want, but dont
do as we did in Vietnam, and as the Russians did in Afghanistan.

I know one thing.  Here in America, when the Afghan conflict started, we
thought Russia would just roll over them.  They didnt, and it had less to do
with how capable the Afghans were than it did with the fact that the
Russians werent the horrible brutes we thought they would be.  I am
convinced that if the Russians had been as cold-blooded as we thought they
were, that war would have been over in a few weeks.  I dont think Stalin
would have had a problem, given the same military capacity, in winning that
war in less than a month.

Dave


--

DavidJ...@USA.net (Email Address)

http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/candyman (Web Page)

503/905-6832 (Fax Number)

"Leo" <x_...@digicon.com> wrote in message
news:886c6r$rpg$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au...
> "Brave" Chechens got their arse kicked, PERIOD.
>
>

whatever it is, chechnya probably mismanaged it to hell by the time
the russians came in...



On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:08:48 +0800, " beng" <beng@phua.chu.kang>
wrote:

>I heard Russia wanted Chechnya becuase of oil.
>It was reported Chechnya provide 20% of Soviet oil export during the
>communist regime.
>Any one can confirm this?



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*aku_siapa* <aku_...@reformasi.com> wrote in message
news:38a4fb0e.0@news.tm.net.my...
> Lest we forget... The Chechens are only defending themselves!
> Stop trying to justify the atrocities inflicted by the Russians upon these
> brave people.
Outcry as Russia's new rules trap children in war zone
Crisis in Chechnya: special report

Amelia Gentleman in Moscow
Friday January 14, 2000
The Guardian

Russia came under strong international pressure yesterday to revoke a new
diktat defining as rebels all Chechen males between the ages of 10 and 60,
as the tougher security regulations provoked chaos and misery for civilians
trying to flee heavy fighting in the region.

Some children were trapped inside the war zone as a result of the rules
which came into force on Wednesday and now automatically classify them as
fighters. The crackdown follows a number of reversals for the Russian
military offensive in recent days.

M�decins Sans Fronti�res, the international humanitarian group which won the
1999 Nobel Peace Prize, yesterday accused Russia of committing war crimes in
Chechnya, and the US state department told Moscow it had an obligation to
respect the rights of civilians trying to escape the war zone.

M�decins Sans Fronti�res made its accusation in an open letter to Washington
urging President Clinton to press for an end to the war launched in late
September by Moscow, which said its aim was to quash Islamic militants it
blames for hundreds of kidnappings, incursions into Russian areas and a
series of apartment bombings inside Russia.

The president of the republic of Ingushetia - which borders Chechnya and has
taken in wave after wave of refugees - also condemned Russia's new crackdown
on civilians. It was crueller, he maintained, than anything done to the
Chechens under Joseph Stalin's rule, when the entire nation was deported to
Asia during the second world war.

There was growing fear that the suffering could worsen dramatically if new
"filtration camps" are set up to sift Chechen fighters from civilians
detained under the new regulations; during Russia's previous war against
Chechnya in 1994-96, such camps became notorious for their brutality.

Russia has launched a fierce new assault on Chechnya to try to reverse
successes by the rebels there earlier this week, and large numbers of
civilians were yesterday trying to escape the intensified fighting.

But refugees on the Chechen border with Ingushetia told of families torn
apart by the Kremlin's new rules: Russian soldiers were refusing to let
young boys flee the bombing with their relatives, refugees said in accounts
from the scene.

Datu Isigova, a refugee from the Chechen capital, Grozny, said she had been
forced to abandon her 11-year-old son Arbi and her husband Suleman as she
fled to Ingushetia. Other women had decided to stay in combat areas rather
than leave their sons.

Some men were unable to get back into Chechnya. Kairish, a hairdresser, was
trying to return to his eight children living alone in a train carriage a
few miles in from the border, after what he thought would be a short trip to
Ingushetia to buy food and shoes.

"I don't know what to do. My wife is dead and my kids have been left by
themselves for two days," he told Reuters, holding a bag of bread. "I am 55,
and the guards told me I'm not allowed to cross because I'm not 60."

President Ruslan Aushev of Ingushetia condemned Russia's measure in the
bitterest terms, describing it as "illegal and discriminatory".

It would succeed only in alienating any Chechen who still felt residual
sympathy for the Russians, he warned, and would prompt young men to join the
rebels' cause.

The problems experienced by refugees as a result of the measure were being
monitored by human rights activists in Ingushetia. "Chechen males are now
effectively trapped in a dangerous war. It is fundamentally unacceptable to
deny civilian males - including children as young as 10 - the right to flee
from from heavy fighting," said a spokesman for the New York-based group
Human Rights Watch.

In its open letter, published in the New York Times, M�decins Sans
Fronti�res said that almost four months of indiscriminate Russian bombing of
Grozny and other parts of Chechnya "constitute war crimes".

During the conflict in the Serbian province of Kosovo earlier this year, the
letter said to the White House, "your administration mounted an all-out
public relations campaign aimed at rallying support for the humanitarian
concerns of the besieged citizens of Kosovo. Where is the similar
high-level, public discussion of the plight of civilians in Chechnya? Do
they suffer less than the people of Kosovo?"

� Copyright Guardian Media Group plc. 2000

The party is not over until the fat lady sings!

Leo wrote in message <886c6r$rpg$1...@mirv.unsw.edu.au>...
>"Brave" Chechens got their arse kicked, PERIOD.
>
>

No nation has a right to commence a war against another, unless that nation
has been comitting genocide, or disobeying the norms of the civilized
society by engaging in criminal activity.

None of  the   above has been proved against the Chechens!

Dave Francis wrote in message ...
>Ultimately, history will decide who was right and wrong, but I know one
>thing.  As a country, if you are going to have a war, you should go win the
>damn thing.  Let all the hand-wringers bitch and cry if they want, but dont
>do as we did in Vietnam, and as the Russians did in Afghanistan.
>
>I know one thing.  Here in America, when the Afghan conflict started, we
>thought Russia would just roll over them.  They didnt, and it had less to
do
>with how capable the Afghans were than it did with the fact that the
>Russians werent the horrible brutes we thought they would be.  I am
>convinced that if the Russians had been as cold-blooded as we thought they
>were, that war would have been over in a few weeks.  I dont think Stalin
>would have had a problem, given the same military capacity, in winning that
>war in less than a month.
>
>Dave
>
>
>--
>
>DavidJ...@USA.net (Email Address)
>
>http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/candyman (Web Page)
>
>503/905-6832 (Fax Number)
>
>"Leo" <x_...@digicon.com> wrote in message
>news:886c6r$rpg$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au...
>> "Brave" Chechens got their arse kicked, PERIOD.
>>
>>
>
>

*aku_siapa* <aku_...@reformasi.com> wrote in message
news:38a4fb0e.0@news.tm.net.my...
> Lest we forget... The Chechens are only defending themselves!
> Stop trying to justify the atrocities inflicted by the Russians upon these
> brave people.
>
Chechens trapped in the factory of death
Crisis in Chechnya: special report

Russia holds hundreds in the hunt for rebels

Amelia Gentleman
Sunday February 13, 2000
The Observer

It is an ugly name for an ugly place. Outside Chernokozovo 'filtration camp'
relatives wait for news of their menfolk. Inside, according to human rights
groups, Russian soldiers are beating, raping and torturing Chechen
prisoners.

Chernokozovo, with about 700 detainees, is the largest of four camps in
which the Russians are 'separating' terrorists from civilians. Many of the
men have been summarily arrested on the flimsiest of pretexts.

The camp, a former Soviet factory 30 miles north of Grozny, has been thrown
together from red brick and barbed wire. The factory's tall water coolers
have been converted into watchtowers; high walls make it impossible to see
what is happening inside.

News from behind the huge sliding doors is scarce. Relatives of those
detained wait in the nearby market place for scraps of informa tion brought
out by locals employed in the prison.

Magomadovo Umarovna was yesterday waiting by the gate holding five garlic
heads which she hoped to be able to pass to her detained son, Adlan Basayev.
The orderly who serves food to the inmates had managed to smuggle out a note
from him, begging her to send some kind of medicine to protect against
tuberculosis.

In detention since 13 January, her son's only crime was to have the same
surname as the Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev. 'They checked his papers and
decided he must be a relative. Why should he suffer because of his surname?
None of us have ever even set eyes on Basayev. The system is very cruel,'
she said.

'He wrote that there was a TB epidemic inside. I can't get the right tablets
to send him. I hope the garlic may help.' His note had given few details of
life within the camp. 'They're scared to write much, in case the letter goes
astray. But I know things are bad for him there. Someone who was recently
freed told me my son's nose was broken when he was beaten in the toilets.'

This is the detention centre where Russian war correspondent Andrei
Babitsky - arrested for reporting from Grozny without military permission -
was allegedly held by the Russian security services, before being handed
over to Chechen fighters last week in a prisoner swap. He is thought to have
been badly treated during his stay. On Friday a funeral was held in
Chernokozovo for another inmate who died after being beaten. 'Sometimes at
night people living near the prison say they can hear the noise of people
being tortured,' Umarovna said.

Last week a letter detailing the brutality of the camp regime, apparently
written by a Russian soldier there, was leaked to the media. He described
how Chechen inmates were being systematically beaten, raped and killed. He
said that Babitsky 'was beaten so badly that his glasses were flung in the
air, poor guy'. The soldier expressed his sense of guilt at his
participation in the brutality.

Human rights organisations have also expressed concern at the conditions
within these centres, set up with the aim of filtering out fighters from
civilians. There is evidence that large numbers of young Chechen men are
being rounded up arbitrarily and detained.

Peter Bouckaert, Human Rights Watch's representative in the region, said:
'These men are being taken to unknown detention facilities and their
families are not being informed of where they are. Some men are never heard
of again. Given the massive abuses that took place in these centres during
the last war, we are gravely concerned about this developing trend.'

Explaining the scale of what the Russians insist on calling a 'cleansing
operation', he said he had evidence that 120 men had been arrested en masse
in Shami-Yurt, near Grozny, earlier this month. Fighters and civilians are
arrested together, but there is no information to explain if and how the
Russian military sets about distinguishing between the two categories. No
international monitoring organisation has been permitted to visit any of the
four main camps.

The camps became notorious during Russia's last war with Chechnya, when many
Chechen men died during their detention and many more died shortly after
their release. Then human rights activists gathered horrific stories of
torture - with former inmates describing being held in airless cells, or in
dark mud pits dug out from the ground, often knee-deep in water. Many said
they had been the victims of both psychological and physical torture.

In Grozny, the war goes on. And not all of the city's residents are entirely
hostile to the Russian forces. Some of Grozny's residents say they are
grateful to the Russian soldiers for their drive to clear the city of
fighters. Standing outside the blackened remains of the grandiose entrance
to Grozny's main park (still named the Park of Culture and Rest in the name
of Lenin), Pyotr Sidorov, 64, a Russian who has lived in Chechnya for most
of his life, said he approved of the campaign.

Behind him as he walked to collect a bucket of water for his family, a
panorama of total destruction was visible. Not a single building in Grozny
remains intact. 'The Russians were right to do this. We need to fight to put
a sensible government in power here,' he said.

� Copyright Guardian Media Group plc. 2000

I am not pretending to know who is right and wrong.  I am just saying, if
you are going to go to war, you should go to win.....

Dave

--

DavidJ...@USA.net (Email Address)

http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/candyman (Web Page)

503/905-6832 (Fax Number)

"Amigocabal" <par...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ixFp4.949$QK6.14664@news4.mia...
> No nation has a right to commence a war against another, unless that
nation
> has been comitting genocide, or disobeying the norms of the civilized
> society by engaging in criminal activity.
>
> None of  the   above has been proved against the Chechens!
>
> Dave Francis wrote in message ...
> >Ultimately, history will decide who was right and wrong, but I know one
> >thing.  As a country, if you are going to have a war, you should go win
the
> >damn thing.  Let all the hand-wringers bitch and cry if they want, but
dont
> >do as we did in Vietnam, and as the Russians did in Afghanistan.
> >
> >I know one thing.  Here in America, when the Afghan conflict started, we
> >thought Russia would just roll over them.  They didnt, and it had less to
> do
> >with how capable the Afghans were than it did with the fact that the
> >Russians werent the horrible brutes we thought they would be.  I am
> >convinced that if the Russians had been as cold-blooded as we thought
they
> >were, that war would have been over in a few weeks.  I dont think Stalin
> >would have had a problem, given the same military capacity, in winning
that
> >war in less than a month.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >DavidJ...@USA.net (Email Address)
> >
> >http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/candyman (Web Page)
> >
> >503/905-6832 (Fax Number)
> >
> >"Leo" <x_...@digicon.com> wrote in message
> >news:886c6r$rpg$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au...
> >> "Brave" Chechens got their arse kicked, PERIOD.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>