🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:32:48 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
<mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:

>In article <387b8163.175363103@news.ix.netcom.com>,
>  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:48:22 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
>> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> Snip
>> >> >>>Er no Ray, the facts are that it's my country, not yours,
>whither
>> >you
>> >> >>>like it or not. Your ignorance of the facts is breathtaking.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>It's Ireland's lost statelet, and it will be returned... Of that
>> >there is
>> >> >>no doubt, the timeing may be in doubt, but the rest is set in
>> >stone...
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Still deluding yourself I see.
>> >>
>> >> NO more then you are if you think that NI will stay British...
>> >>
>> >
>> >I think you're the one deluding yourself. Face it, Republicanism has
>> >lost.
>>
>> And the fruits of that terrible loss is clear for all to see, but
>> just a few of the losses include:
>>
>> SF elevated to the same status as the Unionists,
>
>That's nonsense. How did you work this one out. The fact of the matter
>is that despite their links with the IRA, SF are a political party. The
>arrangement for government of NI is that all the major political parties
>are involved in the government.

You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph...


>
>> and
>> now part of the Government of NI... Terrible loss that...
>>
>> The IRA didn't disband...  Ouch how did we survive?
>>
>
>The IRA was defacto defeated. Where's the United Ireland from 25 years
>of bombing and shooting? Surely the IRA have always maintained that they
>would only stop their campaign when there was a United Ireland? I think
>you know that the IRA have been defeated, but you won't admit it.

Let's see... Not a single weapon or bullet, never mind a ounce of semtex
has been either handed in or decommissioned...  The IRA themselves
provided the ceasefire because they felt that progress could be (finally)
made by getting the English to force the Unionists into accepting that
Catholics had rights too and deserved equal and fair treatment...

As for the UI, it's still on the agenda... But now it will probably be gotten
by elective majority vote... But it will come...

The IRA were not, are not, and never could be defeated... Because
for each provo fallen, two will rise to take his place.. The English tried
everything in their powers to defeat the IRA by military means and
failed... The English could not make the streets of NI safe, nor for
that matter the streets of anywhere in England safe, how on earth
can you you expect them to defeat the IRA?

>> Not a single bullet, nevermind gun was handed over
>> despite the Unionists demands for such things...
>>
>> Republican prisioners have all but been released from
>> prison...
>>
>> The South will have a greater say in NI affairs in the
>> future...
>>
>
>Actually no. The Cross-Border bodies are meaningless talking shops. The
>authority lies with the people of NI themselves.

Right now, that may be true to an extent, but that will change too over
time...  That wasn't put in place for to make the agreement pretty...


>
>> The police will be reformed, sectarianism will not be
>> tolerated any longer in the police...
>>
>
>Sectarianism is not tolerated at the moment in the police.

Allegedly... But it seems only one side of the community
divide believe this... the reforms (long overdue that they are)
might finally address this issue...

>
>> The military will have a lessened role and eventually
>> a symbolic role only in NI as their need to be there
>> vanishes...
>>
>
>The levels of the army in NI are going to be reduced to what they would
>be if there were no terrorist threat. I don't see how you can claim this
>are a victory.

It will make the place safer to get *all* guns off the streets...

>
>There will still be soldiers in NI, those that would be there normally.

Probably, but only symbolic rather then working there... which is no
bad thing... They can find time to pack their bellongings for when
it's time to go home...

>
>> Once things have calmed down and the majority
>> come to realise that they are better being united with
>> the Republic, we will have a United Ireland...
>>
>
>Ah, the old republican mantra I see. You still have fuck all
>understanding of unionists I see.

Let's see I've as much understanding of Unionists as you have
about republicans...

>
>By your logic you personally would be better off if you are a citizen of
>the US. Will you then be pledging allegiance to the Stars and Stripes
>then?

Stop fudging the issue... stick to the discussion...

>
>> And these are only a few of the "losses" the Republicans
>> have... Explain to me agian why we lost Dave?
>>
>
>25 years of bombing and shooting. Wheres the United Ireland Ray?

Not here yet, but coming soon to a country near you...

>
>> Snip - Irish Holocaust...
>>
>> >> ON this we'll have to agree to disagree...
>> >>
>> >
>> >The facts back me up on this, not you.
>>
>> Seems the other way round from where I'm standing....
>>
>
>Ray, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the arse.

Ditto...

>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>Snip
>> >> >>>>>You have repeatedly supported the bombing of cities in
>England.
>> >When it
>> >> >>>>>does occur, you have repeatedly apologised for the
>terrorists...
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>Never supported, said I understood the motavation, BIG
>difference
>> >> >>>>why can't you see that, or can you but prefer not to?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>You have supported it. You have engaged in an orgiastic frenzy
>> >> >>>everytime a bomb goes off.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>And how many bombs have "gone off" while I was on SCI Dave?
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Oh come on. Look at how you constantly seek to excuse the
>terorists
>> >> >and their actions. "Oh maybe the police misunderstood the
>warning!"
>> >> >you whine (and worse)
>> >>
>> >> You wrote "every time a bomb goes off", and were referring to the
>> >> present, not the past...
>> >>
>> >
>> >You have still engaged in apologies for terrorists.
>>
>> Your retraction is noted...
>>
>
>I haven't retracted. I stand by my original comments. You're the one who
>has failed miserably.

Not at all... I might not have succeeded as well as I'd have liked but
I've had my little successes here and there... And then there is my
non-SCI activity, people visiting my webpage and then contacting me
for more information and there is no lilly-livered liberals and
pseudo-fascist pressure groupies to denounce them for daring to
either ask questions or express views that are "not popular"...

Snip
>> >> If a man saves a child from being hit by a car, but he's an IRA
>> >> man, is he evil or has he just done good?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Weak, very weak. Try better.
>>
>> As you are so fond of saying "answer the question Dave"
>>
>
>You're fogging the issue. You cannot compare the actions of the IRA to
>saving a child. In fact, the weakness of your attempting rebuttal just
>shows up the paucity of your arguments.

I will paraphrase your answer:  You cannot compare the actions
of the IRA to those of SF...  By your logic, you just admitted there
is no link between these groups...

Snip
>> >> >The composition of the IRA Army Council in 1994 is well known:
>> >> >
>> >> >Joe Cahill
>> >> >Gerry Adams
>> >> >Martin McGuiness
>> >> >Gerry Kelly
>> >> >Slab Murphy
>> >> >Kevin McKenna
>> >> >Paddy Docherty
>> >> >
>> >> >You'll notice that quite a few SF bigwigs are in there. You'll
>also
>> >> >remember how Slab Murphy got humiliated in court.
>> >>
>> >> NO court has ever proven the linkage...  It might exist, but it's
>not
>> >> provable, or proven....
>> >>
>> >
>> >I can't help noticing how you insist on a court for this, yet you
>won't
>> >accept the word of the court in the case of Gibraltar. A tad
>> >hypocritical don't you think?
>>
>> Gibraltar was one incident, the troubles are over 30 years old
>> and many have tried to prove such a link, but none have...
>>
>
>Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.

Because it's impossible to prove...

>
>> >> >>The source of those attempting to blow my arguments apart are
>> >> >>also noted....  Hardly an unbiast bunch...
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >It's immaterial. The fact of the matter is that your arguments are
>> >> >complete shite.
>> >>
>> >> The source is *never* immaterial Dave....
>> >>
>> >
>> >Facts are facts Ray.
>>
>> Sources are sources... When I first came to this newsgroup my
>> sources for my facts were on the "suspect" list too... I learned that
>> lesson the hard way....
>>
>
>Your sources are still suspect. Likw how you tried to deny there was
>semtex in marbella, or trying to argue the value of PI.

I was saying there was no semtex in Gibraltar, not Spain, and I
did question the amount and how it got there right enough...
As for the value of Pi... I fucked that up rightly... I admit it...

>
>> >> >>I don't care what "everyone" things... I know myself... I know
>> >> >>what I've done and what I'm capable of doing... Cowardise
>> >> >>is not one of them...   If I was only free to tell all, you'd
>> >understand...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Ray
>> >> >
>> >> >Well then, you should tell all then.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not in a position to...
>> >>
>> >> Ray
>> >>
>> >
>> >Funny how everyone else is, yet you expect to be treated
>differently...
>>
>> NO, not treated differently, but I've stories and incidents I can't
>tell
>> you about that formed a lot of my opinions...  People I knew and
>things
>> I did, etc... But this is not the medium to explain it, even though
>it's
>> all past now...
>>
>> Ray
>>
>
>Myself, or even Mr Heron have told many stories about our past here on
>this newsgroup. Others have as well, yet we are to believe that you have
>an exemption to this?

If you knew the stories I might tell you'd understand...

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
26 + 6 = 1  United Ireland, Erin go bre�!
Email: rayh@iol.ie
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article <387b8163.175363103@news.ix.netcom.com>,
  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:48:22 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> Snip
> >> >>>Er no Ray, the facts are that it's my country, not yours,
whither
> >you
> >> >>>like it or not. Your ignorance of the facts is breathtaking.
> >> >>
> >> >>It's Ireland's lost statelet, and it will be returned... Of that
> >there is
> >> >>no doubt, the timeing may be in doubt, but the rest is set in
> >stone...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Still deluding yourself I see.
> >>
> >> NO more then you are if you think that NI will stay British...
> >>
> >
> >I think you're the one deluding yourself. Face it, Republicanism has
> >lost.
>
> And the fruits of that terrible loss is clear for all to see, but
> just a few of the losses include:
>
> SF elevated to the same status as the Unionists,

That's nonsense. How did you work this one out. The fact of the matter
is that despite their links with the IRA, SF are a political party. The
arrangement for government of NI is that all the major political parties
are involved in the government.

> and
> now part of the Government of NI... Terrible loss that...
>
> The IRA didn't disband...  Ouch how did we survive?
>

The IRA was defacto defeated. Where's the United Ireland from 25 years
of bombing and shooting? Surely the IRA have always maintained that they
would only stop their campaign when there was a United Ireland? I think
you know that the IRA have been defeated, but you won't admit it.

> Not a single bullet, nevermind gun was handed over
> despite the Unionists demands for such things...
>
> Republican prisioners have all but been released from
> prison...
>
> The South will have a greater say in NI affairs in the
> future...
>

Actually no. The Cross-Border bodies are meaningless talking shops. The
authority lies with the people of NI themselves.

> The police will be reformed, sectarianism will not be
> tolerated any longer in the police...
>

Sectarianism is not tolerated at the moment in the police.

> The military will have a lessened role and eventually
> a symbolic role only in NI as their need to be there
> vanishes...
>

The levels of the army in NI are going to be reduced to what they would
be if there were no terrorist threat. I don't see how you can claim this
are a victory.

There will still be soldiers in NI, those that would be there normally.

> Once things have calmed down and the majority
> come to realise that they are better being united with
> the Republic, we will have a United Ireland...
>

Ah, the old republican mantra I see. You still have fuck all
understanding of unionists I see.

By your logic you personally would be better off if you are a citizen of
the US. Will you then be pledging allegiance to the Stars and Stripes
then?

> And these are only a few of the "losses" the Republicans
> have... Explain to me agian why we lost Dave?
>

25 years of bombing and shooting. Wheres the United Ireland Ray?

> Snip - Irish Holocaust...
>
> >> ON this we'll have to agree to disagree...
> >>
> >
> >The facts back me up on this, not you.
>
> Seems the other way round from where I'm standing....
>

Ray, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the arse.

> >
> >> >
> >> >>Snip
> >> >>>>>You have repeatedly supported the bombing of cities in
England.
> >When it
> >> >>>>>does occur, you have repeatedly apologised for the
terrorists...
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>Never supported, said I understood the motavation, BIG
difference
> >> >>>>why can't you see that, or can you but prefer not to?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>You have supported it. You have engaged in an orgiastic frenzy
> >> >>>everytime a bomb goes off.
> >> >>
> >> >>And how many bombs have "gone off" while I was on SCI Dave?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Oh come on. Look at how you constantly seek to excuse the
terorists
> >> >and their actions. "Oh maybe the police misunderstood the
warning!"
> >> >you whine (and worse)
> >>
> >> You wrote "every time a bomb goes off", and were referring to the
> >> present, not the past...
> >>
> >
> >You have still engaged in apologies for terrorists.
>
> Your retraction is noted...
>

I haven't retracted. I stand by my original comments. You're the one who
has failed miserably.

> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>>>>Ray, you cannot get out of this one. You have supported the
> >actions of
> >> >>>>>the IRA. If you deny it you're just a hypocrite.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>Depends on which actions, and which IRA and what time in
history,
> >> >>>>yeah I support the 1916 IRA, who are now national heroes in
> >Ireland.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Don't try and get out of it. You have supported actions of PIRA.
> >> >>
> >> >>There are lots of actions, some are more understandable then
> >others...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >You've just admitted that you have. Thank you.
> >>
> >> If a man saves a child from being hit by a car, but he's an IRA
> >> man, is he evil or has he just done good?
> >>
> >
> >Weak, very weak. Try better.
>
> As you are so fond of saying "answer the question Dave"
>

You're fogging the issue. You cannot compare the actions of the IRA to
saving a child. In fact, the weakness of your attempting rebuttal just
shows up the paucity of your arguments.

> >

> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>Snip - SF and IRA possible linkage (are we bored with this yet???
> ><<<yawn>>>)
> >> >>
> >> >>>>Not proven in a court of law (where it matters)...
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>A court of law (ECHR) cleared the SAS in Gibraltar. Funny how
you
> >> >>>don't accept that now is it?
> >> >>
> >> >>NO link...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >The composition of the IRA Army Council in 1994 is well known:
> >> >
> >> >Joe Cahill
> >> >Gerry Adams
> >> >Martin McGuiness
> >> >Gerry Kelly
> >> >Slab Murphy
> >> >Kevin McKenna
> >> >Paddy Docherty
> >> >
> >> >You'll notice that quite a few SF bigwigs are in there. You'll
also
> >> >remember how Slab Murphy got humiliated in court.
> >>
> >> NO court has ever proven the linkage...  It might exist, but it's
not
> >> provable, or proven....
> >>
> >
> >I can't help noticing how you insist on a court for this, yet you
won't
> >accept the word of the court in the case of Gibraltar. A tad
> >hypocritical don't you think?
>
> Gibraltar was one incident, the troubles are over 30 years old
> and many have tried to prove such a link, but none have...
>

Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.

> >> >>The source of those attempting to blow my arguments apart are
> >> >>also noted....  Hardly an unbiast bunch...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >It's immaterial. The fact of the matter is that your arguments are
> >> >complete shite.
> >>
> >> The source is *never* immaterial Dave....
> >>
> >
> >Facts are facts Ray.
>
> Sources are sources... When I first came to this newsgroup my
> sources for my facts were on the "suspect" list too... I learned that
> lesson the hard way....
>

Your sources are still suspect. Likw how you tried to deny there was
semtex in marbella, or trying to argue the value of PI.

> >> >>I don't care what "everyone" things... I know myself... I know
> >> >>what I've done and what I'm capable of doing... Cowardise
> >> >>is not one of them...   If I was only free to tell all, you'd
> >understand...
> >> >>
> >> >>Ray
> >> >
> >> >Well then, you should tell all then.
> >>
> >> I'm not in a position to...
> >>
> >> Ray
> >>
> >
> >Funny how everyone else is, yet you expect to be treated
differently...
>
> NO, not treated differently, but I've stories and incidents I can't
tell
> you about that formed a lot of my opinions...  People I knew and
things
> I did, etc... But this is not the medium to explain it, even though
it's
> all past now...
>
> Ray
>

Myself, or even Mr Heron have told many stories about our past here on
this newsgroup. Others have as well, yet we are to believe that you have
an exemption to this?

Regards,
Dave

--
The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

In article <387cc657.258563428@news.ix.netcom.com>,
  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:32:48 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <387b8163.175363103@news.ix.netcom.com>,
> >  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:48:22 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
> >> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Snip
> >> >> >>>Er no Ray, the facts are that it's my country, not yours,
> >whither
> >> >you
> >> >> >>>like it or not. Your ignorance of the facts is breathtaking.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>It's Ireland's lost statelet, and it will be returned... Of
that
> >> >there is
> >> >> >>no doubt, the timeing may be in doubt, but the rest is set in
> >> >stone...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Still deluding yourself I see.
> >> >>
> >> >> NO more then you are if you think that NI will stay British...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I think you're the one deluding yourself. Face it, Republicanism
has
> >> >lost.
> >>
> >> And the fruits of that terrible loss is clear for all to see, but
> >> just a few of the losses include:
> >>
> >> SF elevated to the same status as the Unionists,
> >
> >That's nonsense. How did you work this one out. The fact of the
matter
> >is that despite their links with the IRA, SF are a political party.
The
> >arrangement for government of NI is that all the major political
parties
> >are involved in the government.
>
> You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph...
>

No, you display an amazing ability to miss the point.

> >
> >> and
> >> now part of the Government of NI... Terrible loss that...
> >>
> >> The IRA didn't disband...  Ouch how did we survive?
> >>
> >
> >The IRA was defacto defeated. Where's the United Ireland from 25
years
> >of bombing and shooting? Surely the IRA have always maintained that
they
> >would only stop their campaign when there was a United Ireland? I
think
> >you know that the IRA have been defeated, but you won't admit it.
>
> Let's see... Not a single weapon or bullet, never mind a ounce of
semtex
> has been either handed in or decommissioned...  The IRA themselves
> provided the ceasefire because they felt that progress could be
(finally)
> made by getting the English to force the Unionists into accepting that
> Catholics had rights too and deserved equal and fair treatment...
>
> As for the UI, it's still on the agenda... But now it will probably be
gotten
> by elective majority vote... But it will come...
>
> The IRA were not, are not, and never could be defeated... Because
> for each provo fallen, two will rise to take his place.. The English
tried
> everything in their powers to defeat the IRA by military means and
> failed... The English could not make the streets of NI safe, nor for
> that matter the streets of anywhere in England safe, how on earth
> can you you expect them to defeat the IRA?
>

Listen to yourself. Pathetic whingings.

Look at the facts: After 25 years of bombing and shooting, where is the
United Ireland? The IRA's goal is a united ireland. THEY FAILED. No
amount of wriggling from you can disguise this fact.

> >> Not a single bullet, nevermind gun was handed over
> >> despite the Unionists demands for such things...
> >>
> >> Republican prisioners have all but been released from
> >> prison...
> >>
> >> The South will have a greater say in NI affairs in the
> >> future...
> >>
> >
> >Actually no. The Cross-Border bodies are meaningless talking shops.
The
> >authority lies with the people of NI themselves.
>
> Right now, that may be true to an extent, but that will change too
over
> time...  That wasn't put in place for to make the agreement pretty...
>

Your ability to completely miss the point is noted again.

> >
> >> The police will be reformed, sectarianism will not be
> >> tolerated any longer in the police...
> >>
> >
> >Sectarianism is not tolerated at the moment in the police.
>
> Allegedly... But it seems only one side of the community
> divide believe this... the reforms (long overdue that they are)
> might finally address this issue...
>

The fact of the matter is that what prevented most catholics from
joining the RUC was the fear of being shot by republican terrorists and
the vile propaganda campaign being waged by Sinn Fein. That is a FACT.

> >
> >> The military will have a lessened role and eventually
> >> a symbolic role only in NI as their need to be there
> >> vanishes...
> >>
> >
> >The levels of the army in NI are going to be reduced to what they
would
> >be if there were no terrorist threat. I don't see how you can claim
this
> >are a victory.
>
> It will make the place safer to get *all* guns off the streets...
>

There would be no need for the army if there is no terrorist threaty.

> >
> >There will still be soldiers in NI, those that would be there
normally.
>
> Probably, but only symbolic rather then working there... which is no
> bad thing... They can find time to pack their bellongings for when
> it's time to go home...
>

Listen you idiot, how can you say a regiment like the Royal Irish
Rangers, which consists of people BORN and who LIVE in Northern Ireland,
does not belong there?

Whither you like it or not, NI is part of the UK, and as such will have
soldiers stationed there just like any other part of the UK.

> >
> >> Once things have calmed down and the majority
> >> come to realise that they are better being united with
> >> the Republic, we will have a United Ireland...
> >>
> >
> >Ah, the old republican mantra I see. You still have fuck all
> >understanding of unionists I see.
>
> Let's see I've as much understanding of Unionists as you have
> about republicans...
>

I don't go about claiming to know everything about Republicanism. And I
actually have met and talked with republicans. Unlike you, who has
probably never met a Unionist in your life.

> >
> >By your logic you personally would be better off if you are a citizen
of
> >the US. Will you then be pledging allegiance to the Stars and Stripes
> >then?
>
> Stop fudging the issue... stick to the discussion...
>

That is the issue. You said that if people in NI saw that they would be
better off in the Republic then they would join. I asked you if you were
going to extend the SAME argument to yourself in the US.

You ducked the question (again), which speaks volumes.

> >
> >> And these are only a few of the "losses" the Republicans
> >> have... Explain to me agian why we lost Dave?
> >>
> >
> >25 years of bombing and shooting. Wheres the United Ireland Ray?
>
> Not here yet, but coming soon to a country near you...
>

No. The Aim of the IRA was a United Ireland. I see no United Ireland,
nor even the prospect of one. Face it Ray, you've failed.

> >
> >> Snip - Irish Holocaust...
> >>
> >> >> ON this we'll have to agree to disagree...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >The facts back me up on this, not you.
> >>
> >> Seems the other way round from where I'm standing....
> >>
> >
> >Ray, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the arse.
>
> Ditto...
>

Oh? Lets see you post some facts. You never do.

BTW still feel like arguing the value of Pi?

> >
> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>Snip
> >> >> >>>>>You have repeatedly supported the bombing of cities in
> >England.
> >> >When it
> >> >> >>>>>does occur, you have repeatedly apologised for the
> >terrorists...
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>Never supported, said I understood the motavation, BIG
> >difference
> >> >> >>>>why can't you see that, or can you but prefer not to?
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>You have supported it. You have engaged in an orgiastic
frenzy
> >> >> >>>everytime a bomb goes off.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>And how many bombs have "gone off" while I was on SCI Dave?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Oh come on. Look at how you constantly seek to excuse the
> >terorists
> >> >> >and their actions. "Oh maybe the police misunderstood the
> >warning!"
> >> >> >you whine (and worse)
> >> >>
> >> >> You wrote "every time a bomb goes off", and were referring to
the
> >> >> present, not the past...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >You have still engaged in apologies for terrorists.
> >>
> >> Your retraction is noted...
> >>
> >
> >I haven't retracted. I stand by my original comments. You're the one
who
> >has failed miserably.
>
> Not at all... I might not have succeeded as well as I'd have liked but
> I've had my little successes here and there... And then there is my
> non-SCI activity, people visiting my webpage and then contacting me
> for more information and there is no lilly-livered liberals and
> pseudo-fascist pressure groupies to denounce them for daring to
> either ask questions or express views that are "not popular"...
>

Hitting a nerve am I?

> Snip
> >> >> If a man saves a child from being hit by a car, but he's an IRA
> >> >> man, is he evil or has he just done good?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Weak, very weak. Try better.
> >>
> >> As you are so fond of saying "answer the question Dave"
> >>
> >
> >You're fogging the issue. You cannot compare the actions of the IRA
to
> >saving a child. In fact, the weakness of your attempting rebuttal
just
> >shows up the paucity of your arguments.
>
> I will paraphrase your answer:  You cannot compare the actions
> of the IRA to those of SF...  By your logic, you just admitted there
> is no link between these groups...
>

No Ray. You should take a course in elementary logic. Then perhaps you
would not make a fool of yourself like you just did.

> Snip
> >> >> >The composition of the IRA Army Council in 1994 is well known:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Joe Cahill
> >> >> >Gerry Adams
> >> >> >Martin McGuiness
> >> >> >Gerry Kelly
> >> >> >Slab Murphy
> >> >> >Kevin McKenna
> >> >> >Paddy Docherty
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You'll notice that quite a few SF bigwigs are in there. You'll
> >also
> >> >> >remember how Slab Murphy got humiliated in court.
> >> >>
> >> >> NO court has ever proven the linkage...  It might exist, but
it's
> >not
> >> >> provable, or proven....
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I can't help noticing how you insist on a court for this, yet you
> >won't
> >> >accept the word of the court in the case of Gibraltar. A tad
> >> >hypocritical don't you think?
> >>
> >> Gibraltar was one incident, the troubles are over 30 years old
> >> and many have tried to prove such a link, but none have...
> >>
> >
> >Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.
>
> Because it's impossible to prove...
>

The issue of Gravity has never come up in a court of law. Or Einstein's
theory of relativity. Now are you going to tell me that those can't be
proved as well?

> >
> >> >> >>The source of those attempting to blow my arguments apart are
> >> >> >>also noted....  Hardly an unbiast bunch...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >It's immaterial. The fact of the matter is that your arguments
are
> >> >> >complete shite.
> >> >>
> >> >> The source is *never* immaterial Dave....
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Facts are facts Ray.
> >>
> >> Sources are sources... When I first came to this newsgroup my
> >> sources for my facts were on the "suspect" list too... I learned
that
> >> lesson the hard way....
> >>
> >
> >Your sources are still suspect. Likw how you tried to deny there was
> >semtex in marbella, or trying to argue the value of PI.
>
> I was saying there was no semtex in Gibraltar, not Spain, and I
> did question the amount and how it got there right enough...

No Ray, you questioned the existance of the lockup in Spain. You even
suggested that it had been planted there.

> As for the value of Pi... I fucked that up rightly... I admit it...
>

It does not inspire confidence in your ability to argue a case.

> >
> >> >> >>I don't care what "everyone" things... I know myself... I know
> >> >> >>what I've done and what I'm capable of doing... Cowardise
> >> >> >>is not one of them...   If I was only free to tell all, you'd
> >> >understand...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Ray
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Well then, you should tell all then.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not in a position to...
> >> >>
> >> >> Ray
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Funny how everyone else is, yet you expect to be treated
> >differently...
> >>
> >> NO, not treated differently, but I've stories and incidents I can't
> >tell
> >> you about that formed a lot of my opinions...  People I knew and
> >things
> >> I did, etc... But this is not the medium to explain it, even though
> >it's
> >> all past now...
> >>
> >> Ray
> >>
> >
> >Myself, or even Mr Heron have told many stories about our past here
on
> >this newsgroup. Others have as well, yet we are to believe that you
have
> >an exemption to this?
>
> If you knew the stories I might tell you'd understand...
>
> Ray

So in other words you were nothing but a racist thug?

Regards,
Dave

--
The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:58 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
<mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:


>> >> And the fruits of that terrible loss is clear for all to see, but
>> >> just a few of the losses include:
>> >>
>> >> SF elevated to the same status as the Unionists,
>> >
>> >That's nonsense. How did you work this one out. The fact of the
>matter
>> >is that despite their links with the IRA, SF are a political party.
>The
>> >arrangement for government of NI is that all the major political
>parties
>> >are involved in the government.
>>
>> You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph...
>>
>
>No, you display an amazing ability to miss the point.

Was there a point to miss is the question?

Snip
>> The IRA were not, are not, and never could be defeated... Because
>> for each provo fallen, two will rise to take his place.. The English
>tried
>> everything in their powers to defeat the IRA by military means and
>> failed... The English could not make the streets of NI safe, nor for
>> that matter the streets of anywhere in England safe, how on earth
>> can you you expect them to defeat the IRA?
>>
>
>Listen to yourself. Pathetic whingings.

I don't think so at all...

>
>Look at the facts: After 25 years of bombing and shooting, where is the
>United Ireland? The IRA's goal is a united ireland. THEY FAILED. No
>amount of wriggling from you can disguise this fact.

Ok, then explain to me how the Nationalists have a "gut feeling" that
at the least we drew, and we got more out of "them" then they would
have liked..    Why is there a sense of victory in the camp if "THEY
FAILED" as you shouted at me...

>
>> >> Not a single bullet, nevermind gun was handed over
>> >> despite the Unionists demands for such things...
>> >>
>> >> Republican prisioners have all but been released from
>> >> prison...
>> >>
>> >> The South will have a greater say in NI affairs in the
>> >> future...
>> >>
>> >
>> >Actually no. The Cross-Border bodies are meaningless talking shops.
>The
>> >authority lies with the people of NI themselves.
>>
>> Right now, that may be true to an extent, but that will change too
>over
>> time...  That wasn't put in place for to make the agreement pretty...
>>
>
>Your ability to completely miss the point is noted again.

Your responses are getting weaker is also noted...

>
>> >
>> >> The police will be reformed, sectarianism will not be
>> >> tolerated any longer in the police...
>> >>
>> >
>> >Sectarianism is not tolerated at the moment in the police.
>>
>> Allegedly... But it seems only one side of the community
>> divide believe this... the reforms (long overdue that they are)
>> might finally address this issue...
>>
>
>The fact of the matter is that what prevented most catholics from
>joining the RUC was the fear of being shot by republican terrorists and
>the vile propaganda campaign being waged by Sinn Fein. That is a FACT.

Who in their right mind would join the RUC and be a Catholic anyway?
One of my cousins joined the Brit army and was mercilessly slagged
as being "thick mick" and "drunken fuck" "paddy" and "Irish bastard"
among other vile names...  I tried to warn him not to join but he wouldn't
listen, we had a falling out.   I said to him he's Irish how can he consider
joining the British army? and he said he didn't feel Irish (or some such
words) and was looking forward to going to NI... I told him he'll meet
the lads and wouldn't find NI that much fun after that, but he's
a pig headed idiot and once he left for the Army, that was me and
him done with, we never had (nor do I want to have) any contact
with each other...   I feel he betrayed his people...   I tell you this
story because I feel that it's a similar one to the one that might
be told by the family and friends of people in NI that join the
security forces...


>
>> >
>> >> The military will have a lessened role and eventually
>> >> a symbolic role only in NI as their need to be there
>> >> vanishes...
>> >>
>> >
>> >The levels of the army in NI are going to be reduced to what they
>would
>> >be if there were no terrorist threat. I don't see how you can claim
>this
>> >are a victory.
>>
>> It will make the place safer to get *all* guns off the streets...
>>
>
>There would be no need for the army if there is no terrorist threaty.

There is no terrorist threat anymore...   When the army going home?


>
>> >
>> >There will still be soldiers in NI, those that would be there
>normally.
>>
>> Probably, but only symbolic rather then working there... which is no
>> bad thing... They can find time to pack their bellongings for when
>> it's time to go home...
>>
>
>Listen you idiot, how can you say a regiment like the Royal Irish
>Rangers, which consists of people BORN and who LIVE in Northern Ireland,
>does not belong there?

They can stay, I'm referring to English regiments brought over, not the
ones made up of people who live there...

>
>Whither you like it or not, NI is part of the UK, and as such will have
>soldiers stationed there just like any other part of the UK.

But with Scotland, and NI breaking away, and Wales making
murmers in that direction, those troops will have a whole lot
of packing and moving to do in the future...

>
>> >
>> >> Once things have calmed down and the majority
>> >> come to realise that they are better being united with
>> >> the Republic, we will have a United Ireland...
>> >>
>> >
>> >Ah, the old republican mantra I see. You still have fuck all
>> >understanding of unionists I see.
>>
>> Let's see I've as much understanding of Unionists as you have
>> about republicans...
>>
>
>I don't go about claiming to know everything about Republicanism. And I
>actually have met and talked with republicans. Unlike you, who has
>probably never met a Unionist in your life.

I've known Republicans too, and it's true I've never met a Unionist
in person, but I've seen plenty of them and read plenty about them
and have more pity then hate towards them because they are
misguided souls that need rehabilitation...

>
>> >
>> >By your logic you personally would be better off if you are a citizen
>of
>> >the US. Will you then be pledging allegiance to the Stars and Stripes
>> >then?
>>
>> Stop fudging the issue... stick to the discussion...
>>
>
>That is the issue. You said that if people in NI saw that they would be
>better off in the Republic then they would join. I asked you if you were
>going to extend the SAME argument to yourself in the US.
>
>You ducked the question (again), which speaks volumes.

My situation and NI's situation are entirely different, I'm just one
man, NI is a statelet of over a million people...

>
>> >
>> >> And these are only a few of the "losses" the Republicans
>> >> have... Explain to me agian why we lost Dave?
>> >>
>> >
>> >25 years of bombing and shooting. Wheres the United Ireland Ray?
>>
>> Not here yet, but coming soon to a country near you...
>>
>
>No. The Aim of the IRA was a United Ireland. I see no United Ireland,
>nor even the prospect of one. Face it Ray, you've failed.

"you've failed", you mean the republican movement has failed, I
see a United Ireland coming soon...

>
>> >
>> >> Snip - Irish Holocaust...
>> >>
>> >> >> ON this we'll have to agree to disagree...
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >The facts back me up on this, not you.
>> >>
>> >> Seems the other way round from where I'm standing....
>> >>
>> >
>> >Ray, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the arse.
>>
>> Ditto...
>>
>
>Oh? Lets see you post some facts. You never do.

I do, you just happen to disagree with them more often then
others...

>> >I haven't retracted. I stand by my original comments. You're the one
>who
>> >has failed miserably.
>>
>> Not at all... I might not have succeeded as well as I'd have liked but
>> I've had my little successes here and there... And then there is my
>> non-SCI activity, people visiting my webpage and then contacting me
>> for more information and there is no lilly-livered liberals and
>> pseudo-fascist pressure groupies to denounce them for daring to
>> either ask questions or express views that are "not popular"...
>>
>
>Hitting a nerve am I?

No, but a fact is that this newsgroup is not representative of the
Irish people I've known... And the anti republicans on this group
give the impression that the Republican movement has no supporters
which is totally wrong...   I was hoping to address this with my now
(apparently) dead proposal for a pan Nationalist front.


>> >You're fogging the issue. You cannot compare the actions of the IRA
>to
>> >saving a child. In fact, the weakness of your attempting rebuttal
>just
>> >shows up the paucity of your arguments.
>>
>> I will paraphrase your answer:  You cannot compare the actions
>> of the IRA to those of SF...  By your logic, you just admitted there
>> is no link between these groups...
>>
>
>No Ray. You should take a course in elementary logic. Then perhaps you
>would not make a fool of yourself like you just did.

I'm pretty good at logic... it's humor that I sometimes fail to get...



>> >Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.
>>
>> Because it's impossible to prove...
>>
>
>The issue of Gravity has never come up in a court of law. Or Einstein's
>theory of relativity. Now are you going to tell me that those can't be
>proved as well?

Different issues...

>
>> >
>> >> >> >>The source of those attempting to blow my arguments apart are
>> >> >> >>also noted....  Hardly an unbiast bunch...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >It's immaterial. The fact of the matter is that your arguments
>are
>> >> >> >complete shite.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The source is *never* immaterial Dave....
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Facts are facts Ray.
>> >>
>> >> Sources are sources... When I first came to this newsgroup my
>> >> sources for my facts were on the "suspect" list too... I learned
>that
>> >> lesson the hard way....
>> >>
>> >
>> >Your sources are still suspect. Likw how you tried to deny there was
>> >semtex in marbella, or trying to argue the value of PI.
>>
>> I was saying there was no semtex in Gibraltar, not Spain, and I
>> did question the amount and how it got there right enough...
>
>No Ray, you questioned the existance of the lockup in Spain. You even
>suggested that it had been planted there.

I may have been bluffing to see what reaction I get, I sometimes
take up positions simply to gauge the reaction to them to try
and do a litmus test of the feelings of the newsgroup and try
to gauge which way the tide is flowing... I did this (blatently)
with my "English invented the Concentration Camp" things
and even put "stir stir" there to show this... It sparked a very
interesting debate...   Sometimes the best method is to
just light the fuse and run like hell!  :-)

>
>> As for the value of Pi... I fucked that up rightly... I admit it...
>>
>
>It does not inspire confidence in your ability to argue a case.

What's worse is that I'm usually *so careful* in choosing exactly
what words I'll say and how I say them too...

>
>> >
>> >> >> >>I don't care what "everyone" things... I know myself... I know
>> >> >> >>what I've done and what I'm capable of doing... Cowardise
>> >> >> >>is not one of them...   If I was only free to tell all, you'd
>> >> >understand...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>Ray
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Well then, you should tell all then.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm not in a position to...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ray
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Funny how everyone else is, yet you expect to be treated
>> >differently...
>> >>
>> >> NO, not treated differently, but I've stories and incidents I can't
>> >tell
>> >> you about that formed a lot of my opinions...  People I knew and
>> >things
>> >> I did, etc... But this is not the medium to explain it, even though
>> >it's
>> >> all past now...
>> >>
>> >> Ray
>> >>
>> >
>> >Myself, or even Mr Heron have told many stories about our past here
>on
>> >this newsgroup. Others have as well, yet we are to believe that you
>have
>> >an exemption to this?
>>
>> If you knew the stories I might tell you'd understand...
>>
>> Ray
>
>So in other words you were nothing but a racist thug?

I'm not a racist or a thug...

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
26 + 6 = 1  United Ireland, Erin go bre�!
Email: rayh@iol.ie
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WhiteWolf <lschamus@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<387e1a5c.2308470@news.ix.netcom.com>...
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:58 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
< ---------------------------BIG SNIP----------------------------->

10  You say black, I say white
20  Goto 10

I followed this thread for a while and I'm getting sick of it. What makes
you (Ray) REALLY think that the troubles will gain a United Ireland ?
If a referendum was held in NI asking if we wanted to 'unite' have a guess
what the majority answer would be ?
A referendum will have to happen before anyone unites and the voting will
not include the Republic. Surley a referendum would have to be held in the
south asking them if they wanted us (NI). Correct me if I'm wrong.
You'd be naive if you think the troubles (both sides) have achieved
anything, apart from ruining the lives of countless people.


Boom boom, game over.
Bob Hunter
NI

PS And I agree with Daves comments about Catholics & RUC, they were
deterred to join via a gun to the head.

In article <387e1a5c.2308470@news.ix.netcom.com>,
  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:58 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> And the fruits of that terrible loss is clear for all to see,
but
> >> >> just a few of the losses include:
> >> >>
> >> >> SF elevated to the same status as the Unionists,
> >> >
> >> >That's nonsense. How did you work this one out. The fact of the
> >matter
> >> >is that despite their links with the IRA, SF are a political
party.
> >The
> >> >arrangement for government of NI is that all the major political
> >parties
> >> >are involved in the government.
> >>
> >> You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph...
> >>
> >
> >No, you display an amazing ability to miss the point.
>
> Was there a point to miss is the question?
>

Yes.

> Snip
> >> The IRA were not, are not, and never could be defeated... Because
> >> for each provo fallen, two will rise to take his place.. The
English
> >tried
> >> everything in their powers to defeat the IRA by military means and
> >> failed... The English could not make the streets of NI safe, nor
for
> >> that matter the streets of anywhere in England safe, how on earth
> >> can you you expect them to defeat the IRA?
> >>
> >
> >Listen to yourself. Pathetic whingings.
>
> I don't think so at all...
>

Actually, they are.

> >
> >Look at the facts: After 25 years of bombing and shooting, where is
the
> >United Ireland? The IRA's goal is a united ireland. THEY FAILED. No
> >amount of wriggling from you can disguise this fact.
>
> Ok, then explain to me how the Nationalists have a "gut feeling" that
> at the least we drew, and we got more out of "them" then they would
> have liked..    Why is there a sense of victory in the camp if "THEY
> FAILED" as you shouted at me...
>

People have an amazing ability to delude themselves. Go you to
Crossmaglen or some other republican stronghold and look at the glum
faces amongst republicans on the street - 25 years and they've achieved
very little.

As for your gut feeling, I suggest you take some Imodium to get rid of
it.

> >
> >> >> Not a single bullet, nevermind gun was handed over
> >> >> despite the Unionists demands for such things...
> >> >>
> >> >> Republican prisioners have all but been released from
> >> >> prison...
> >> >>
> >> >> The South will have a greater say in NI affairs in the
> >> >> future...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Actually no. The Cross-Border bodies are meaningless talking
shops.
> >The
> >> >authority lies with the people of NI themselves.
> >>
> >> Right now, that may be true to an extent, but that will change too
> >over
> >> time...  That wasn't put in place for to make the agreement
pretty...
> >>
> >
> >Your ability to completely miss the point is noted again.
>
> Your responses are getting weaker is also noted...
>

Ha. Rich coming from a man who tried to argue the value of PI...

> >
> >> >
> >> >> The police will be reformed, sectarianism will not be
> >> >> tolerated any longer in the police...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Sectarianism is not tolerated at the moment in the police.
> >>
> >> Allegedly... But it seems only one side of the community
> >> divide believe this... the reforms (long overdue that they are)
> >> might finally address this issue...
> >>
> >
> >The fact of the matter is that what prevented most catholics from
> >joining the RUC was the fear of being shot by republican terrorists
and
> >the vile propaganda campaign being waged by Sinn Fein. That is a
FACT.
>
> Who in their right mind would join the RUC and be a Catholic anyway?

Funny how the application rate from Catholics to join the RUC DOUBLED
during the first ceasefire, and how over the last several years the main
reason why the catholic proportion of the RUC hasn't been rising faster
is due to the fact that there aren't enough jobs available for them?

> One of my cousins joined the Brit army and was mercilessly slagged
> as being "thick mick" and "drunken fuck" "paddy" and "Irish bastard"
> among other vile names...

Coming from someone who spouts out the anti-british bigotry that you do
that's a bit rich.

>  I tried to warn him not to join but he wouldn't
> listen, we had a falling out.   I said to him he's Irish how can he
consider
> joining the British army? and he said he didn't feel Irish (or some
such
> words) and was looking forward to going to NI... I told him he'll meet
> the lads and wouldn't find NI that much fun after that, but he's
> a pig headed idiot and once he left for the Army, that was me and
> him done with, we never had (nor do I want to have) any contact
> with each other...

What about the thousands of other Irish people in the British Army?

> I feel he betrayed his people...   I tell you this
> story because I feel that it's a similar one to the one that might
> be told by the family and friends of people in NI that join the
> security forces...
>

Someone's been reading An Problacht again. Know about how SF/IRA are now
hounding Denis Faul because he went onto a Police liason committee?


> >
> >> >
> >> >> The military will have a lessened role and eventually
> >> >> a symbolic role only in NI as their need to be there
> >> >> vanishes...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >The levels of the army in NI are going to be reduced to what they
> >would
> >> >be if there were no terrorist threat. I don't see how you can
claim
> >this
> >> >are a victory.
> >>
> >> It will make the place safer to get *all* guns off the streets...
> >>
> >
> >There would be no need for the army if there is no terrorist threaty.
>
> There is no terrorist threat anymore...   When the army going home?
>

What about the LVF/CIRA/RIRA?

The numbers of the troops are being reduced, and will be reduced further
over the next year or so.

> >
> >> >
> >> >There will still be soldiers in NI, those that would be there
> >normally.
> >>
> >> Probably, but only symbolic rather then working there... which is
no
> >> bad thing... They can find time to pack their bellongings for when
> >> it's time to go home...
> >>
> >
> >Listen you idiot, how can you say a regiment like the Royal Irish
> >Rangers, which consists of people BORN and who LIVE in Northern
Ireland,
> >does not belong there?
>
> They can stay, I'm referring to English regiments brought over, not
the
> ones made up of people who live there...
>

There is no need for extra regiments over above the norm if there is no
terrorist threat.

> >
> >Whither you like it or not, NI is part of the UK, and as such will
have
> >soldiers stationed there just like any other part of the UK.
>
> But with Scotland, and NI breaking away, and Wales making
> murmers in that direction, those troops will have a whole lot
> of packing and moving to do in the future...
>

If in the event of an independant Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, I
would guess that the local regiments would form the armed forces of the
particular state. But this whole scenario is at best very unlikely, for
despite the efforts of NuLab and the EU, the UK won't break up.

> >
> >> >
> >> >> Once things have calmed down and the majority
> >> >> come to realise that they are better being united with
> >> >> the Republic, we will have a United Ireland...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Ah, the old republican mantra I see. You still have fuck all
> >> >understanding of unionists I see.
> >>
> >> Let's see I've as much understanding of Unionists as you have
> >> about republicans...
> >>
> >
> >I don't go about claiming to know everything about Republicanism. And
I
> >actually have met and talked with republicans. Unlike you, who has
> >probably never met a Unionist in your life.
>
> I've known Republicans too, and it's true I've never met a Unionist
> in person, but I've seen plenty of them and read plenty about them
> and have more pity then hate towards them because they are
> misguided souls that need rehabilitation...
>

Listen to yourself. You're pathetic. You've graphically revealed how you
know the square root of fuck all about unionism and unionists.

Let us take what you said and adapt it.

Now, let's say that I supported the idea of Ireland rejoining the UK.
Lets suppose that I said that you were being misguided and you would see
the light once it happened, and that you would suddenly give up all your
pretense of Irishness and become a West Briton

Sounds Daft? Of course it is. But it is just what you said.

> >
> >> >
> >> >By your logic you personally would be better off if you are a
citizen
> >of
> >> >the US. Will you then be pledging allegiance to the Stars and
Stripes
> >> >then?
> >>
> >> Stop fudging the issue... stick to the discussion...
> >>
> >
> >That is the issue. You said that if people in NI saw that they would
be
> >better off in the Republic then they would join. I asked you if you
were
> >going to extend the SAME argument to yourself in the US.
> >
> >You ducked the question (again), which speaks volumes.
>
> My situation and NI's situation are entirely different, I'm just one
> man, NI is a statelet of over a million people...
>

Immaterial. Answer the question. Will you be taking your own advice and
saluting the Stars and Stripes?

> >
> >> >
> >> >> And these are only a few of the "losses" the Republicans
> >> >> have... Explain to me agian why we lost Dave?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >25 years of bombing and shooting. Wheres the United Ireland Ray?
> >>
> >> Not here yet, but coming soon to a country near you...
> >>
> >
> >No. The Aim of the IRA was a United Ireland. I see no United Ireland,
> >nor even the prospect of one. Face it Ray, you've failed.
>
> "you've failed", you mean the republican movement has failed, I
> see a United Ireland coming soon...
>

It's funny how no one else does.

> >
> >> >
> >> >> Snip - Irish Holocaust...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> ON this we'll have to agree to disagree...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The facts back me up on this, not you.
> >> >>
> >> >> Seems the other way round from where I'm standing....
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Ray, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the arse.
> >>
> >> Ditto...
> >>
> >
> >Oh? Lets see you post some facts. You never do.
>
> I do, you just happen to disagree with them more often then
> others...
>

I've asked you for facts to support your postings. Please provide some.

> >> >I haven't retracted. I stand by my original comments. You're the
one
> >who
> >> >has failed miserably.
> >>
> >> Not at all... I might not have succeeded as well as I'd have liked
but
> >> I've had my little successes here and there... And then there is my
> >> non-SCI activity, people visiting my webpage and then contacting me
> >> for more information and there is no lilly-livered liberals and
> >> pseudo-fascist pressure groupies to denounce them for daring to
> >> either ask questions or express views that are "not popular"...
> >>
> >
> >Hitting a nerve am I?
>
> No, but a fact is that this newsgroup is not representative of the
> Irish people I've known... And the anti republicans on this group
> give the impression that the Republican movement has no supporters
> which is totally wrong...   I was hoping to address this with my now
> (apparently) dead proposal for a pan Nationalist front.
>

And how many votes did SF get in the south recently?

It's YOU who are out of touch.

> >> >You're fogging the issue. You cannot compare the actions of the
IRA
> >to
> >> >saving a child. In fact, the weakness of your attempting rebuttal
> >just
> >> >shows up the paucity of your arguments.
> >>
> >> I will paraphrase your answer:  You cannot compare the actions
> >> of the IRA to those of SF...  By your logic, you just admitted
there
> >> is no link between these groups...
> >>
> >
> >No Ray. You should take a course in elementary logic. Then perhaps
you
> >would not make a fool of yourself like you just did.
>
> I'm pretty good at logic... it's humor that I sometimes fail to get...
>
> >> >Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.
> >>
> >> Because it's impossible to prove...
> >>
> >
> >The issue of Gravity has never come up in a court of law. Or
Einstein's
> >theory of relativity. Now are you going to tell me that those can't
be
> >proved as well?
>
> Different issues...
>

No. Same thing. Answer the question please.

> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> >>The source of those attempting to blow my arguments apart
are
> >> >> >> >>also noted....  Hardly an unbiast bunch...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >It's immaterial. The fact of the matter is that your
arguments
> >are
> >> >> >> >complete shite.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The source is *never* immaterial Dave....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Facts are facts Ray.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sources are sources... When I first came to this newsgroup my
> >> >> sources for my facts were on the "suspect" list too... I learned
> >that
> >> >> lesson the hard way....
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Your sources are still suspect. Likw how you tried to deny there
was
> >> >semtex in marbella, or trying to argue the value of PI.
> >>
> >> I was saying there was no semtex in Gibraltar, not Spain, and I
> >> did question the amount and how it got there right enough...
> >
> >No Ray, you questioned the existance of the lockup in Spain. You even
> >suggested that it had been planted there.
>
> I may have been bluffing to see what reaction I get, I sometimes
> take up positions simply to gauge the reaction to them to try
> and do a litmus test of the feelings of the newsgroup and try
> to gauge which way the tide is flowing... I did this (blatently)
> with my "English invented the Concentration Camp" things
> and even put "stir stir" there to show this... It sparked a very
> interesting debate...   Sometimes the best method is to
> just light the fuse and run like hell!  :-)
>

Oh come on Ray - you really expect us to believe that?

> >
> >> As for the value of Pi... I fucked that up rightly... I admit it...
> >>
> >
> >It does not inspire confidence in your ability to argue a case.
>
> What's worse is that I'm usually *so careful* in choosing exactly
> what words I'll say and how I say them too...
>

I don't see any evidence of that I'm afraid.

> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> >>I don't care what "everyone" things... I know myself... I
know
> >> >> >> >>what I've done and what I'm capable of doing... Cowardise
> >> >> >> >>is not one of them...   If I was only free to tell all,
you'd
> >> >> >understand...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>Ray
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Well then, you should tell all then.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm not in a position to...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Ray
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Funny how everyone else is, yet you expect to be treated
> >> >differently...
> >> >>
> >> >> NO, not treated differently, but I've stories and incidents I
can't
> >> >tell
> >> >> you about that formed a lot of my opinions...  People I knew and
> >> >things
> >> >> I did, etc... But this is not the medium to explain it, even
though
> >> >it's
> >> >> all past now...
> >> >>
> >> >> Ray
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Myself, or even Mr Heron have told many stories about our past
here
> >on
> >> >this newsgroup. Others have as well, yet we are to believe that
you
> >have
> >> >an exemption to this?
> >>
> >> If you knew the stories I might tell you'd understand...
> >>
> >> Ray
> >
> >So in other words you were nothing but a racist thug?
>
> I'm not a racist or a thug...
>
> Ray

Oh? Your postings as Fingal may cause people to disagree with the first
part of that statement, and the fact that you refuse to mention anything
about these alledged reasons leads to the obvious conclusion that
perhaps criminal activity was involved (which I hope that it wasn't. Can
you confirm that it wasn't?)

Regards,
Dave

--
The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

On 14 Jan 2000 13:44:53 GMT, "Bob Hunter" <bobhunt@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
>WhiteWolf <lschamus@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><387e1a5c.2308470@news.ix.netcom.com>...
>> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:58 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
>> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>< ---------------------------BIG SNIP----------------------------->
>
>10  You say black, I say white
>20  Goto 10
>
>I followed this thread for a while and I'm getting sick of it. What makes
>you (Ray) REALLY think that the troubles will gain a United Ireland ?

First, the troubles are over... The war is all political now...

>If a referendum was held in NI asking if we wanted to 'unite' have a guess
>what the majority answer would be ?

NI was a created statelet, designed exactly to give the Unionists
the majority so that they would not have to answer to the Nationalists..
But both sides are tired of the war and I believe that when that
referendum comes up, they will agree to join with us...

>A referendum will have to happen before anyone unites and the voting will
>not include the Republic.

The Republic will also hole a referendum to ask if we *want* the
Northerners... But I know that they majority will say yes there...

> Surley a referendum would have to be held in the
>south asking them if they wanted us (NI). Correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you're right, see above...

>You'd be naive if you think the troubles (both sides) have achieved
>anything, apart from ruining the lives of countless people.

I think you're wrong... I think that the IRA bringing the war to
the English mainland and causing them so much expense to
repar the damage from billion pound (cost to repair) bombs
that the English, hurting in the pocket, decided to finally try
and really see if something couldn't be done to put an end
to it all...

>PS And I agree with Daves comments about Catholics & RUC, they were
>deterred to join via a gun to the head.

That's propaganda... If 600 Catholics wanted to join up and the IRA
killed them all, that would be end of any and all support for the IRA
in NI and anywhere else.... Once a group turns on the people it
proports to protect, it loses the respect of the people and nobody
will help them, or care if the English slaughter them...

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
26 + 6 = 1  United Ireland, Erin go bre�!
Email: rayh@iol.ie
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:49:43 +0000, Paul Cunnane <paul@orac.ie> wrote:

>> > >Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.
>> >
>> > Because it's impossible to prove...
>
>> The issue of Gravity has never come up in a court of law. Or Einstein's
>> theory of relativity. Now are you going to tell me that those can't be
>> proved as well?
>
>Um... They can't.  But they can be effectively demonstrated.  And they
>are broadly accepted as facts.
>
>Lesson for you there somewhere, Ray...

If the two are linked, then let me see the proof and if it's
to my satisfaction, I'd admit I was wrong... I've seen quotes
from former IRA and from other indivuduals that suggest a link
but that's the weakest form of evidence...

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
26 + 6 = 1  United Ireland, Erin go bre�!
Email: rayh@iol.ie
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> > >Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.
> >
> > Because it's impossible to prove...

> The issue of Gravity has never come up in a court of law. Or Einstein's
> theory of relativity. Now are you going to tell me that those can't be
> proved as well?

Um... They can't.  But they can be effectively demonstrated.  And they
are broadly accepted as facts.

Lesson for you there somewhere, Ray...

____
Paul

WhiteWolf <lschamus@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> >PS And I agree with Daves comments about Catholics & RUC, they were
> >deterred to join via a gun to the head.
>
> That's propaganda... If 600 Catholics wanted to join up and the IRA
> killed them all, that would be end of any and all support for the IRA
> in NI and anywhere else.... Once a group turns on the people it
> proports to protect, it loses the respect of the people and nobody
> will help them, or care if the English slaughter them...
>

Then how come the IRA have murdered more Irish Catholic civilians than
British soldiers?
--
G.G.
(aka Broomhilda)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:44:53 -0600, Gerard Cunningham <Ger@r.d> wrote:

>Aleister Crowley's Cat wrote:
>
>>In article <387e1a5c.2308470@news.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:58 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
>>> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>[Snip 500 Fucking Lines]
>
>Dave, I never thought I'd say this to a unionist, but for Christ's
>sake Just Say No!
> 
>-- 
>Gerard Cunningham
>abardubh at wwa dot com
>T� m'aerbh�d l�n d'eascanna

what?

Regards,
Dave
   WWW:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html
(The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage)
====================================================================
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

WhiteWolf wrote:

 - snip -

> First, the troubles are over... The war is all political now...

 - snip -

Ray, do you know how to type one single full stop?  Is there an
autorepeat problem with that key on your keyboard?

____
Paul

In article <387f6a24.3341072@news.ix.netcom.com>,
  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2000 13:44:53 GMT, "Bob Hunter" <bobhunt@globalnet.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >WhiteWolf <lschamus@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> ><387e1a5c.2308470@news.ix.netcom.com>...
> >> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:58 GMT, Aleister Crowley's Cat
> >> <mangobanana@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>
> >< ---------------------------BIG SNIP----------------------------->
> >
> >10  You say black, I say white
> >20  Goto 10
> >
> >I followed this thread for a while and I'm getting sick of it. What
makes
> >you (Ray) REALLY think that the troubles will gain a United Ireland ?
>
> First, the troubles are over... The war is all political now...
>
> >If a referendum was held in NI asking if we wanted to 'unite' have a
guess
> >what the majority answer would be ?
>
> NI was a created statelet, designed exactly to give the Unionists
> the majority so that they would not have to answer to the
Nationalists..

Yawn.

NB Support for a United Ireland in NI is only something like 30%.

> But both sides are tired of the war and I believe that when that
> referendum comes up, they will agree to join with us...
>

It just shows how little you know.

> >A referendum will have to happen before anyone unites and the voting
will
> >not include the Republic.
>
> The Republic will also hole a referendum to ask if we *want* the
> Northerners... But I know that they majority will say yes there...
>

You're out of touch as well.

> > Surley a referendum would have to be held in the
> >south asking them if they wanted us (NI). Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> No, you're right, see above...
>
> >You'd be naive if you think the troubles (both sides) have achieved
> >anything, apart from ruining the lives of countless people.
>
> I think you're wrong... I think that the IRA bringing the war to
> the English mainland and causing them so much expense to
> repar the damage from billion pound (cost to repair) bombs
> that the English, hurting in the pocket, decided to finally try
> and really see if something couldn't be done to put an end
> to it all...
>

The IRA were de facto defeated. They were forced to come to the table.

25 years of IRA Butchery and what has it achieved? Where's the United
Ireland that they promised?

> >PS And I agree with Daves comments about Catholics & RUC, they were
> >deterred to join via a gun to the head.
>
> That's propaganda...

No it's fact. Go and look up the recruitment figures youself. Whither
you like it or not, the main reason why Catholics didn't join the RUC
was the threat of SF/IRA intimidation.

> If 600 Catholics wanted to join up and the IRA
> killed them all, that would be end of any and all support for the IRA
> in NI and anywhere else.... Once a group turns on the people it
> proports to protect, it loses the respect of the people and nobody
> will help them, or care if the English slaughter them...
>

Explain the amount of Catholic Civilians killed by the IRA then

Regards,
Dave


> Ray
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 26 + 6 = 1  United Ireland, Erin go bre�!
> Email: rayh@iol.ie
> Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

--
The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

In article <387f6b87.3696137@news.ix.netcom.com>,
  rayh@iol.ie wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:49:43 +0000, Paul Cunnane <paul@orac.ie> wrote:
>
> >> > >Actually, the link has never came up in a court of law IIRC.
> >> >
> >> > Because it's impossible to prove...
> >
> >> The issue of Gravity has never come up in a court of law. Or
Einstein's
> >> theory of relativity. Now are you going to tell me that those can't
be
> >> proved as well?
> >
> >Um... They can't.  But they can be effectively demonstrated.  And
they
> >are broadly accepted as facts.
> >
> >Lesson for you there somewhere, Ray...
>
> If the two are linked, then let me see the proof and if it's
> to my satisfaction, I'd admit I was wrong... I've seen quotes
> from former IRA and from other indivuduals that suggest a link
> but that's the weakest form of evidence...
>
> Ray

That SF and the IRA are linked has been demonstrated again and again and
again and again and again on this newsgroup.

But like the typical Flat-Earther, Ray, you simply are in a state of
denial about it.

Regards,
Dave

--
The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.