🚀 go-pugleaf

Great!... that's what I want to hear.   Any tips?

Brian wrote:
> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
> an alveolar trill

It's difficult to learn, but in my experience, the women LOVE it!

learn spanish ^__^ it's a common sound down here.
Using it in japanese is very very ちんぴらっぽい, so I guess it
depends on the type of girl you're after. I've never tried though, I
shall next time.

I have no idea what an areolar trill is.  Areolar definition:
Anatomy. A small ring of color around a center portion, as about the
nipple of the breast or the part of the iris surrounding the pupil of
the eye.

lol.  sorry 7am here.  I've just woken up.

yagosawa@gmail.com wrote:
> learn spanish ^__^ it's a common sound down here.
> Using it in japanese is very very ちんぴらっぽい, so I guess it
> depends on the type of girl you're after. I've never tried though, I
> shall next time.

Oops. Sorry. I was confusing this with the areolar trill

Brian wrote:
> I have no idea what an areolar trill is.  Areolar definition:
> Anatomy. A small ring of color around a center portion, as about the
> nipple of the breast or the part of the iris surrounding the pupil of
> the eye.

Turn to the Js and look up "joke" too while you're at it...

"Brian" <reil0080@gmail.com> wrote ...
>I have no idea what an areolar trill is.

In this case a bad joke, but do go on.

> Areolar definition:
> Anatomy. A small ring of color around a center portion, as about the
> nipple of the breast or the part of the iris surrounding the pupil of
> the eye.

You've got more than enough to put 2 and 2 together to get 5 with
that and Jeff's earlier comment.

The japanese normal R, as the spanish, is a normal alveolar simple
thrill, very light, and single.

Then there's the strong thrill, which happens in spanish when the word
begins by R, or double R "RR" in middle of the world. Think rata, or
perro.

In japanese they don't use normally this sound, just some yakuza and
people like that. I mean, anyone's who's seen some anime notices the
difference. Shiina Ringo also pronounces like that in some movies.

Maybe it's my misunderstanding, but I thought the original post
referred to the "strong R", as it's relatively uncommon.

Brian wrote:
> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
> and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
> use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
> to know how to do.
>
> Tips?
> Tricks?
> Tounge exercises, etc.
> Past experiences?

In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a single
flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound like a chinpira or
a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound, except
it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound. It is also similar to the
"l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the roof of
the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with the letter "l",
the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof of the mouth simultaneous
with the beginning of vocalization. Note that it has nothing whatsoever to
do with the American English "r" sound.

Jeff

necoandjeff wrote:

> Brian wrote:
>
>>I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>to know how to do.
>>
>>Tips?
>>Tricks?
>>Tounge exercises, etc.
>>Past experiences?
>
>
> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a single
> flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound like a chinpira or
> a young gangster.)

As I remember from a phonology course I took back when punk was in
diapers, it's an "alveolar tap."
It is a sound, however, that I've found Mexican kids can get faster than
the other types of kids I've dealt with. I just get them to do that
rrrrr thing they do, and then say "Just do one of them." On the other
hand, they will always refer to the large seaport as Joke-oh-xama.

  Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound, except
> it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound. It is also similar to the
> "l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the roof of
> the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with the letter "l",
> the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof of the mouth simultaneous
> with the beginning of vocalization. Note that it has nothing whatsoever to
> do with the American English "r" sound.
>
> Jeff
>

Curt Fischer wrote:

> necoandjeff wrote:
> 
>> Brian wrote:
>>
>>> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>> and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>> use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>> to know how to do.
> 
> 
>> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a single
>> flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound like a 
>> chinpira or
>> a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound, 
>> except
>> it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound. 
> 
> 
> Umm, what did you mean by this?  I'm pretty sure that both the English 
> "d" and the Japanese "r" are voiced sounds...

Yeah, I bet he knows that. But that "explosive sound" is what some folks
call "plosive," if I remember correctly. It's that rush of air, that
aspiration, that follows [t] and [d] in most English dialects. Consider
that [t] or [d] can lead to the expelling of a blob of spit into the eye
of one's listener, whereas this is highly unlikely with $B$i$j$k$l$m(B.

>  > It is also similar to the
> 
>> "l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the 
>> roof of
>> the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with the letter 
>> "l",
>> the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof of the mouth 
>> simultaneous
>> with the beginning of vocalization. Note that it has nothing 
>> whatsoever to
>> do with the American English "r" sound.
> 
> 
> So basically, to make a Japanese "r", the back of the tongue is the same 
> as an English "l", and the front of the tongue is like an American 
> Midwesterner's "tt" in "butter" or "batter".  Right?

The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there to
exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue carries on,
and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum, the sound
starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the
tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound
is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick, and
the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
$B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both of
them, but neither.
Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just slice
out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
> 

Curt Fischer wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> Brian wrote:
>>
>>> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>> and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>> use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>> to know how to do.
>
>> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a
>> single flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound like
>> a chinpira or a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to
>> the "d" sound, except it isn't voiced and there is no explosive
>> sound.
>
> Umm, what did you mean by this?  I'm pretty sure that both the English
> "d" and the Japanese "r" are voiced sounds...

I guess you're right that the Japanese r is voiced. I was trying to convey
the fact that it is somewhat unique. For example, you aren't doing a silent
hold followed by explosive release like with (k, g, t, d), you aren't doing
a voiced press of the tongue followed by a non-explosive release like with
an l, you aren't doing a closed mouth voiced followed by a non-explosive
release like with m, p, b. It is a very subtle flick of the tongue at the
moment you begin vocalization. Obviously I'm not a linguist, but I hope this
makes sense.

>  > It is also similar to the
>> "l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the
>> roof of the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with
>> the letter "l", the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof
>> of the mouth simultaneous with the beginning of vocalization. Note
>> that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the American English "r"
>> sound.
>
> So basically, to make a Japanese "r", the back of the tongue is the
> same as an English "l", and the front of the tongue is like an
> American Midwesterner's "tt" in "butter" or "batter".  Right?

Hmmmm. When the ra, ri, ru, re ro follows another consonant, I think the two
are quite similar, but not exactly the same. And words that start with ra,
ri, ru, re, ro are even more different. My sense is that the tip of the
tongue in the tt is a stronger and broader striking of the tongue against
the roof of the mouth than the initial Japanese r, which is a much lighter
(and less voiced, if that makes sense) flick.

Jeff

Sean wrote:
> Curt Fischer wrote:
>
>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>> Brian wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>>> and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>>> use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>>> to know how to do.
>>
>>
>>> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a
>>> single flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound
>>> like a chinpira or
>>> a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound,
>>> except
>>> it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound.
>>
>>
>> Umm, what did you mean by this?  I'm pretty sure that both the
>> English "d" and the Japanese "r" are voiced sounds...
>
> Yeah, I bet he knows that. But that "explosive sound" is what some
> folks call "plosive," if I remember correctly. It's that rush of air,
> that aspiration, that follows [t] and [d] in most English dialects.
> Consider that [t] or [d] can lead to the expelling of a blob of spit
> into the eye of one's listener, whereas this is highly unlikely with
> $B$i$j$k$l$m(B.
>
>>  > It is also similar to the
>>
>>> "l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the
>>> roof of
>>> the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with the
>>> letter "l",
>>> the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof of the mouth
>>> simultaneous
>>> with the beginning of vocalization. Note that it has nothing
>>> whatsoever to
>>> do with the American English "r" sound.
>>
>>
>> So basically, to make a Japanese "r", the back of the tongue is the
>> same as an English "l", and the front of the tongue is like an
>> American Midwesterner's "tt" in "butter" or "batter".  Right?
>
> The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
> teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
> travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there to
> exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue carries
> on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum, the sound
> starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the
> tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound
> is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick, and
> the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
> $B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
> because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both
> of them, but neither.
> Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
> slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.

Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think it has
anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is completely
diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might agree.

Jeff

"Brian" <reil0080@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112059158.944029.125100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create and
> alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently use.  I
> know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't to know how
> to do.
>
> Tips?
> Tricks?
> Tounge exercises, etc.
> Past experiences?
>
> Any information you could share would help me.

The Japanese "r" sound is made by touching the tip of the tongue against the
roof of the mouth, so I believe it's not like any kind of "r" sound in any
European language. It's like an "l" sound in that respect. However, it isn't
an "l" sound either. I learnt to do a Japanese "r" sound from noticing my
Japanese teachers didn't make an "r" sound, and teaching myself to make
(approximately) the sound that they were making.

I don't know the phonetic name or symbol of the Japanese "r" sound, but I
know there is one. Also I don't have a picture handy of the tongue position,
but there is one somewhere on the net or in a textbook.

It might be worth saying that Japanese speakers possibly won't be able to
distinguish the Japanese "r" from English "r" or "l" sounds anyway.

Have a nice Wednesday.

Danny.

yagosawa@gmail.com wrote:
> Then there's the strong thrill, which happens in spanish when the
word
> begins by R, or double R "RR" in middle of the world. Think rata, or
> perro.
>
> In japanese they don't use normally this sound, just some yakuza and
> people like that. I mean, anyone's who's seen some anime notices the
> difference. Shiina Ringo also pronounces like that in some movies.

The stronger trill is exactly what I'm aiming for.  I'm well aware that
it's not something you would want to use in everyday discourse.
Hopefully I'll be buzzing along soon.  There must be a trick to it.
"An efficient second is worth more than 10 years wasted." sort of
thing.

I was told today to try doing an american tap over and over.  Something
like "I edited it."  Say that six times fast.

Sean wrote:
> Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just slice
> out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>

Spanish has two kinds of "r' and non-trilled version of Spanish "r"
is very close (if not same) of Japanese "r".

muchan

Brian wrote:
> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create and
> alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently use.  I
> know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't to know how
> to do.

I had problems when I was first in Japan because people would mistake my
$B$@(B, $B$G(B,$B!!$I(B (da, de, do) sounds for $B$i(B, $B$l(B, $B$m(B (ra, re, ro) sounds.
Then later on I figured out I could probably make Japanese $B$i(Bs,$B$l(Bs, and
$B$m(Bs more like English D sounds and then they would be more native-like.
  The prevailing opinion of the NSOJs around me at the time I started to
do this was that it was an improvement.

I'm back in Japan again for five months and hopefully this time I'll
actually figure out a couple more things about the language.  My
progress is in generall painfully slow.  Good luck!
-- 
Curt Fischer

yagosawa@gmail.com wrote:
>
> In japanese they don't use normally this sound, just some yakuza and
> people like that.

Normal, ordinally non-yakuza citizen from Shitamachi,
(like my grandmather) also use such rrr sounds...
You call it beranmee-choo. abound in rakugo talking...

(Maybe Yakuza used to imitate shitamachi talking...
  or just some of successful gangstar was Edokko and later gangstars
  were blind imitating his speech. Or just Edokko was good at oral
  quarrel (dispute) and yakuza finds it more effective than yamanote
  speech... I donno.)

I think people of some part of Oosaka also use it.


muchan

Sean wrote:

> necoandjeff wrote:
> 
>>Sean wrote:
> 
> 
>>>The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>>teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>>travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there to
>>>exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue carries
>>>on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum, the sound
>>>starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the
>>>tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound
>>>is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick, and
>>>the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>>$B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
>>>because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both
>>>of them, but neither.
>>>Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>>>slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>
>>
>>Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think it has
>>anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is completely
>>diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might agree.
>>
>>Jeff
> 
> 
> Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
> post-consonantal r?
> Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start of
> that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
> speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.

Alvelar $B$@$N(B rotunda $B$@$N!"$J$K!"%P%$%*%m%8!<!)(B

$B$8$c!"(Bcarotid $B$H!!(Bparotid $B$r%+%J$G=q$/$H!)!JF|K\8l$8$c$J$/$F!"%+%J!K(B

necoandjeff wrote:
> Brian wrote:
>
>>I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>to know how to do.

> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a single
> flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound like a chinpira or
> a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound, except
> it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound.

Umm, what did you mean by this?  I'm pretty sure that both the English
"d" and the Japanese "r" are voiced sounds...

 > It is also similar to the
> "l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the roof of
> the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with the letter "l",
> the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof of the mouth simultaneous
> with the beginning of vocalization. Note that it has nothing whatsoever to
> do with the American English "r" sound.

So basically, to make a Japanese "r", the back of the tongue is the same
as an English "l", and the front of the tongue is like an American
Midwesterner's "tt" in "butter" or "batter".  Right?

--
Curt Fischer

Curt Fischer wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>
>> Brian wrote:
>>
>>> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>> and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>> use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>> to know how to do.
>
>
>> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a single
>> flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound like a
>> chinpira or
>> a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound,
>> except
>> it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound.
>
> So basically, to make a Japanese "r", the back of the tongue is the same
> as an English "l", and the front of the tongue is like an American
> Midwesterner's "tt" in "butter" or "batter".  Right?

Oh yeah, and I think the OP was definitely asking about the
chinpira-like trilled variant.  I'm no help there.

--
Curt Fischer

"Wiktor S." wrote ...
> Also I don't hear the difference between American and British r (if not
> dropped of course), BIANASoE.

I'm amused at the idea that there is a (single) British r.

> As I remember from a phonology course I took back when punk was in
> diapers, it's an "alveolar tap."
> It is a sound, however, that I've found Mexican kids can get faster
> than the other types of kids I've dealt with. I just get them to do
> that rrrrr thing they do, and then say "Just do one of them." On the
> other hand, they will always refer to the large seaport as
> Joke-oh-xama.

I learned Japanese r by doing the same trick with Polish r, but now I
realised that Japanese r I produce is no more the same as Polish r-flap. The
tongue position is different so the former sounds more like l, BIANANSoJ.

Also I don't hear the difference between American and British r (if not
dropped of course), BIANASoE.


--
Azarien

wswiktor&poczta,fm

Wiktor S. wrote:
> > The stronger trill is exactly what I'm aiming for.  I'm well aware
> > that it's not something you would want to use in everyday
discourse.
> > Hopefully I'll be buzzing along soon.  There must be a trick to it.
> > "An efficient second is worth more than 10 years wasted." sort of
> > thing.
> >
> > I was told today to try doing an american tap over and over.
> > Something like "I edited it."  Say that six times fast.
>
> That won't do.
> You are not going to make 30-40 taps per second by moving the tongue
on your
> own, because this is impossible.
> The trill is actually made by the FLOW OF AIR, not by your muscles.
> Try putting your tongue in the [d] position and breathe out strongly.
> Once you make it, add voicing.
>
>
> --
> Azarien
>
> wswiktor&poczta,fm


Thank you!  That is exactly the type of information I'm looking for.
Is the tongue curled towards the rear whilst in the 'd' position?  How
hard should you push back?  I've been experimenting with different
setups in my mouth and I can't quite get it.  How "hard" should I be
exhaling?

Should I be relaxing the tip of my tongue somehow?

Sorry for all the trouble.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that necoandjeff wrote in article
<Ber2e.17486$C47.221@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>:

>Sean wrote:
>> Curt Fischer wrote:

>>> necoandjeff wrote:

>>>> Brian wrote:

>>>>> I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to create
>>>>> and alveolar trill "RE", "RA", etc. sound the Japanese apparently
>>>>> use.  I know most don't use it, but this I really something I wan't
>>>>> to know how to do.

>>>> In all seriousness, first of all it isn't a trill at all. It is a
>>>> single flick (unless, as someone pointed out, you want to sound
>>>> like a chinpira or
>>>> a young gangster.) Tongue position is very similar to the "d" sound,
>>>> except
>>>> it isn't voiced and there is no explosive sound.

>>> Umm, what did you mean by this?  I'm pretty sure that both the
>>> English "d" and the Japanese "r" are voiced sounds...

>> Yeah, I bet he knows that. But that "explosive sound" is what some
>> folks call "plosive," if I remember correctly. It's that rush of air,
>> that aspiration, that follows [t] and [d] in most English dialects.
>> Consider that [t] or [d] can lead to the expelling of a blob of spit
>> into the eye of one's listener, whereas this is highly unlikely with
>> $B$i$j$k$l$m(B.

>>>  > It is also similar to the

>>>> "l" sound except that, rather than pressing the tongue against the
>>>> roof of
>>>> the mouth and voicing before releasing the tongue, as with the
>>>> letter "l",
>>>> the tongue just lightly flicks or tickles the roof of the mouth
>>>> simultaneous
>>>> with the beginning of vocalization. Note that it has nothing
>>>> whatsoever to
>>>> do with the American English "r" sound.

>>> So basically, to make a Japanese "r", the back of the tongue is the
>>> same as an English "l", and the front of the tongue is like an
>>> American Midwesterner's "tt" in "butter" or "batter".  Right?

>> The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>> teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>> travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there to
>> exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue carries
>> on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum, the sound
>> starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the
>> tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound
>> is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick, and
>> the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>> $B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
>> because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both
>> of them, but neither.
>> Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>> slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.

>Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think it has
>anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is completely
>diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might agree.

Mebbe it depends on which American English "r" you're talking about.
The frontal one as in road/rough/ready, with the lips (usually) rounded
and the tongue pretty central, or the  "r" at the end of the theater and
the bar and the car, which disappears in some regional dialects, with
the lips relaxed and the tongue at the back?  AFAICT neither one maps
very well to Japanese.  My pedagogical method for the frontal "r" was to
tell the kids to pretend they were going to whistle and then make the
sound from the central tongue position.
-- 
Don
Old age is when you start saying "I wish I knew now what I knew then."

Stole from elsewhere:
There's a cute scene in Spanglish where the Hispanic beauty teaches the
blonde to trill her name. She says curl your tongue tip up to a "d" and
blow air. I've never had to thin about doing it. I jsut always could.
However, if you mke your "d" with a closed jaw or a flat tongue, it
won't work. You really have to drop the jaw and curl the tip up, then
blow an "h" sound. Once you get that flapping under control, add the
"err" sound.

General Page on trill tech':
http://home.unilang.org/babelbabble/index.php?n=2&t=8

necoandjeff wrote:
> Sean wrote:

>>The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there to
>>exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue carries
>>on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum, the sound
>>starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the
>>tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound
>>is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick, and
>>the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>$B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
>>because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both
>>of them, but neither.
>>Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>>slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
> 
> 
> Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think it has
> anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is completely
> diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might agree.
> 
> Jeff

Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
post-consonantal r?
Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start of
that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.

Sean wrote:


> I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html

$B$M$(!"$=$l$C$F$[$s$H$J$N!)(B

> The stronger trill is exactly what I'm aiming for.  I'm well aware
> that it's not something you would want to use in everyday discourse.
> Hopefully I'll be buzzing along soon.  There must be a trick to it.
> "An efficient second is worth more than 10 years wasted." sort of
> thing.
>
> I was told today to try doing an american tap over and over.
> Something like "I edited it."  Say that six times fast.

That won't do.
You are not going to make 30-40 taps per second by moving the tongue on your
own, because this is impossible.
The trill is actually made by the FLOW OF AIR, not by your muscles.
Try putting your tongue in the [d] position and breathe out strongly.
Once you make it, add voicing.


--
Azarien

wswiktor&poczta,fm

Sean wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> Sean wrote:
>
>>> The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>> teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>> travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there
>>> to exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue
>>> carries on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum,
>>> the sound starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r,"
>>> and then the tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of
>>> gum, so the sound is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but
>>> it's just a flick, and the sound almost instantaneously becomes one
>>> of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>> $B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
>>> because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both
>>> of them, but neither.
>>> Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>>> slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>
>>
>> Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think
>> it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is
>> completely diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might
>> agree.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
> post-consonantal r?
> Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start of
> that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
> speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.

My point is, when I say rotunda, the position of my tongue and mouth has
virtually nothing whatsoever to do with positioning for the Japanese r. With
Rotunda, mout is round, cheeks are pulled in, side of tongue is touching the
back of my teeth, tip of tongue is spread out, etc. With Japanese r, mouth
is a little more pulled back, not rounded, tip of tongue is lightly touching
the roof of my mouth in preparation for the light flick and sides of tongue
are touching nothing. Couldn't be any different.

Jeff

necoandjeff wrote:
> Sean wrote:
> 
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>>Sean wrote:
>>
>>>>The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>>>teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>>>travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there
>>>>to exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue
>>>>carries on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of gum,
>>>>the sound starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "r,"
>>>>and then the tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of
>>>>gum, so the sound is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but
>>>>it's just a flick, and the sound almost instantaneously becomes one
>>>>of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>>>$B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes about
>>>>because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is sort of both
>>>>of them, but neither.
>>>>Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>>>>slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think
>>>it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is
>>>completely diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might
>>>agree.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>
>>Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
>>post-consonantal r?
>>Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start of
>>that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
>>speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.
> 
> 
> My point is, when I say rotunda, the position of my tongue and mouth has
> virtually nothing whatsoever to do with positioning for the Japanese r. With
> Rotunda, mout is round, cheeks are pulled in, side of tongue is touching the
> back of my teeth, tip of tongue is spread out, etc. With Japanese r, mouth
> is a little more pulled back, not rounded, tip of tongue is lightly touching
> the roof of my mouth in preparation for the light flick and sides of tongue
> are touching nothing. Couldn't be any different.
> 
> Jeff
> 

Yes it could. It could be way different. Your untrained intuition may be
leading you astray here.
Anyway, the one is an alveolar tap, the other is an alveolar
approximant. The tip of the tongue and the alveolar ridge are key points
for both sounds. I stand by my description of the articulation. I did
some of your homework for you; check out the following URL.
http://tinyurl.com/5bt55
I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html

Sean wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>
>>Sean wrote:
>
>
>>>The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>>teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>>travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there to
>>>exit through somewhat rounded lips. [...]

>>Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think it has
>>anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is completely
>>diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might agree.
[...]

> Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
> post-consonantal r?
> Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start of
> that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
> speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.

I thought your description sounded pretty good.

Then there is the "r" in "three," "thrill," etc.  Many English speakers,
including me, I was surprised to discover, tap that one, pretty much
like the Japanese, except no lateral release.

Bart

Sean wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> Sean wrote:
>>
>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sean wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>>>> teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>>>> travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there
>>>>> to exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue
>>>>> carries on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of
>>>>> gum, the sound starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like
>>>>> an "r," and then the tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the
>>>>> ridge of gum, so the sound is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an
>>>>> "l," but it's just a flick, and the sound almost instantaneously
>>>>> becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>>>> $B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes
>>>>> about because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is
>>>>> sort of both of them, but neither.
>>>>> Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>>>>> slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think
>>>> it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is
>>>> completely diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might
>>>> agree.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
>>> post-consonantal r?
>>> Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start
>>> of that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
>>> speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.
>>
>>
>> My point is, when I say rotunda, the position of my tongue and mouth
>> has virtually nothing whatsoever to do with positioning for the
>> Japanese r. With Rotunda, mout is round, cheeks are pulled in, side
>> of tongue is touching the back of my teeth, tip of tongue is spread
>> out, etc. With Japanese r, mouth is a little more pulled back, not
>> rounded, tip of tongue is lightly touching the roof of my mouth in
>> preparation for the light flick and sides of tongue are touching
>> nothing. Couldn't be any different.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>
> Yes it could. It could be way different. Your untrained intuition may
> be leading you astray here.
> Anyway, the one is an alveolar tap, the other is an alveolar
> approximant. The tip of the tongue and the alveolar ridge are key
> points for both sounds. I stand by my description of the
> articulation. I did some of your homework for you; check out the
> following URL. http://tinyurl.com/5bt55
> I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html

I still don't buy it. However the linguists choose to describe these, the
notion that the pronunciation of the English r (particularly the initial r
as in the word rotunda) and the Japanese r are similar in any way is one
that is certain only to confuse learners. The differences that are pointed
out for the purpose of distinguishing the two are huge in my opinion.

Jeff

Bart Mathias wrote:
> Sean wrote:
>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>> Sean wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>>> teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>>> travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there
>>>> to exit through somewhat rounded lips. [...]
>
>>> Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think
>>> it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is
>>> completely diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might
>>> agree.
> [...]
>
>> Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
>> post-consonantal r?
>> Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start of
>> that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
>> speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.
>
> I thought your description sounded pretty good.
>
> Then there is the "r" in "three," "thrill," etc.  Many English
> speakers, including me, I was surprised to discover, tap that one,
> pretty much like the Japanese, except no lateral release.

I guess I'm just not getting what you guys are talking about. If I stop on
the r in any of those words (kind of like saying grrrrrrrr) and then compare
the position of tongue and mouth necessary to do a Japanese r, I find them
quite different. I have to pull my lips apart and back slightly, I have to
pull the sides of my tongue off of my upper teeth/gums, reposition the tip
of my tongue, etc. How are they similar? I'm a typical midwestern speaker of
English and I've been told my ra, ri, ru, re, ro are virtually
indistinguishable from a native speaker. What am I missing here?

necoandjeff wrote:
> Sean wrote:
> 
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>>Sean wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Sean wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your top
>>>>>>teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the air would
>>>>>>travel along the groove made by the tongue and over the tip, there
>>>>>>to exit through somewhat rounded lips. In Japanese, the tongue
>>>>>>carries on, and a nanosecond before contact with that ridge of
>>>>>>gum, the sound starts, so it is, for a nanosecond, kind of like
>>>>>>an "r," and then the tip of the tongue taps (flicks) against the
>>>>>>ridge of gum, so the sound is, for a nanosecond, kind of like an
>>>>>>"l," but it's just a flick, and the sound almost instantaneously
>>>>>>becomes one of the vowels $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>>>>>$B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes
>>>>>>about because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is
>>>>>>sort of both of them, but neither.
>>>>>>Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then just
>>>>>>slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't think
>>>>>it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The tongue is
>>>>>completely diffferent. If your talking about the British r, I might
>>>>>agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
>>>>post-consonantal r?
>>>>Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start
>>>>of that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you are
>>>>speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.
>>>
>>>
>>>My point is, when I say rotunda, the position of my tongue and mouth
>>>has virtually nothing whatsoever to do with positioning for the
>>>Japanese r. With Rotunda, mout is round, cheeks are pulled in, side
>>>of tongue is touching the back of my teeth, tip of tongue is spread
>>>out, etc. With Japanese r, mouth is a little more pulled back, not
>>>rounded, tip of tongue is lightly touching the roof of my mouth in
>>>preparation for the light flick and sides of tongue are touching
>>>nothing. Couldn't be any different.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>
>>Yes it could. It could be way different. Your untrained intuition may
>>be leading you astray here.
>>Anyway, the one is an alveolar tap, the other is an alveolar
>>approximant. The tip of the tongue and the alveolar ridge are key
>>points for both sounds. I stand by my description of the
>>articulation. I did some of your homework for you; check out the
>>following URL. http://tinyurl.com/5bt55
>>I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
>>http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html
> 
> 
> I still don't buy it. However the linguists choose to describe these, the
> notion that the pronunciation of the English r (particularly the initial r
> as in the word rotunda) and the Japanese r are similar in any way is one
> that is certain only to confuse learners. The differences that are pointed
> out for the purpose of distinguishing the two are huge in my opinion.
> 
> Jeff
> 

So, for the sake of your pedagogical theory, we should ignore the plain
facts? I don't think so. I've led hundreds of teenagers from the swamp
of not being able to say $B$i$j$k$l$m(B to the joyous, sunlit highlands of
being able to do so. Even Ben Bullock, who passionately detested me, saw
fit to adapt an ancient post of mine and stick it in his FAQ, a fact I
only discovered today. But anyway, there it is. However you think you
are producing initial r, I am confident that it sounds like an r to
other people.

Cindy wrote:

> Sean wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
>>http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html
> 
> 
> $B$M$(!"$=$l$C$F$[$s$H$J$N!)(B
> 

Would I commit such an excellent forgery, even if I could, for the sake
of this minor thread?

Sean wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> Sean wrote:
>>
>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sean wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sean wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your
>>>>>>> top teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the
>>>>>>> air would travel along the groove made by the tongue and over
>>>>>>> the tip, there to exit through somewhat rounded lips. In
>>>>>>> Japanese, the tongue carries on, and a nanosecond before
>>>>>>> contact with that ridge of gum, the sound starts, so it is, for
>>>>>>> a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the tip of the
>>>>>>> tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound is,
>>>>>>> for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick,
>>>>>>> and the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels
>>>>>>> $B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>>>>>> $B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes
>>>>>>> about because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is
>>>>>>> sort of both of them, but neither.
>>>>>>> Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then
>>>>>>> just slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't
>>>>>> think it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The
>>>>>> tongue is completely diffferent. If your talking about the
>>>>>> British r, I might agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
>>>>> post-consonantal r?
>>>>> Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start
>>>>> of that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you
>>>>> are speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My point is, when I say rotunda, the position of my tongue and
>>>> mouth has virtually nothing whatsoever to do with positioning for
>>>> the Japanese r. With Rotunda, mout is round, cheeks are pulled in,
>>>> side of tongue is touching the back of my teeth, tip of tongue is
>>>> spread out, etc. With Japanese r, mouth is a little more pulled
>>>> back, not rounded, tip of tongue is lightly touching the roof of
>>>> my mouth in preparation for the light flick and sides of tongue
>>>> are touching nothing. Couldn't be any different.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes it could. It could be way different. Your untrained intuition
>>> may be leading you astray here.
>>> Anyway, the one is an alveolar tap, the other is an alveolar
>>> approximant. The tip of the tongue and the alveolar ridge are key
>>> points for both sounds. I stand by my description of the
>>> articulation. I did some of your homework for you; check out the
>>> following URL. http://tinyurl.com/5bt55
>>> I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
>>> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html
>>
>>
>> I still don't buy it. However the linguists choose to describe
>> these, the notion that the pronunciation of the English r
>> (particularly the initial r as in the word rotunda) and the Japanese
>> r are similar in any way is one that is certain only to confuse
>> learners. The differences that are pointed out for the purpose of
>> distinguishing the two are huge in my opinion.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>
> So, for the sake of your pedagogical theory, we should ignore the
> plain facts? I don't think so. I've led hundreds of teenagers from
> the swamp of not being able to say $B$i$j$k$l$m(B to the joyous, sunlit
> highlands of
> being able to do so. Even Ben Bullock, who passionately detested me,
> saw fit to adapt an ancient post of mine and stick it in his FAQ, a
> fact I only discovered today. But anyway, there it is. However you
> think you are producing initial r, I am confident that it sounds like
> an r to other people.

I have no doubt that they sound similar to other people. There is obviously
a reason why the Japanese consonant has come to be expressed in romaji with
the letter r (although when I hear un-trained Americans say Japanese words
that have rs in them, I sometimes seriously wonder if "l" wouldn't have been
a better choice.) I'm just questioning whether they are similar enough
inside the mouth to draw parallels when explaining to someone else how to
pronounce the Japanese r. I think the morphing distance from the English l
to the Japanese r is much shorter (and a more intuitive starting point) than
the morphing distance from English r to Japanese r. That's all.

Jeff

necoandjeff wrote:

> I have no doubt that they sound similar to other people. There is obviously
> a reason why the Japanese consonant has come to be expressed in romaji with
> the letter r (although when I hear un-trained Americans say Japanese words
> that have rs in them, I sometimes seriously wonder if "l" wouldn't have been
> a better choice.) I'm just questioning whether they are similar enough
> inside the mouth to draw parallels when explaining to someone else how to
> pronounce the Japanese r. I think the morphing distance from the English l
> to the Japanese r is much shorter (and a more intuitive starting point) than
> the morphing distance from English r to Japanese r. That's all.


  Yeah. Coulda been "l." Anyway, when I teach this stuff I don't do it
with longwinded explanations like I've used here. I draw pictures and
demonstrations of the sounds. But I figure folks in this NG are so
highbrow they won't be scared off by terms like "alveolar" and
"approximant."
   Incidentally, one of the things a lot of my Canadian students have to
overcome is using that guttural French "r" thing they've spent a couple
of years acquiring before they come into my class.

necoandjeff wrote:
> Sean wrote:
> 
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>>Sean wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Sean wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sean wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The tip of your tongue heads for that ridge of gum behind your
>>>>>>>>top teeth. In most English "r"s it would stop there, and the
>>>>>>>>air would travel along the groove made by the tongue and over
>>>>>>>>the tip, there to exit through somewhat rounded lips. In
>>>>>>>>Japanese, the tongue carries on, and a nanosecond before
>>>>>>>>contact with that ridge of gum, the sound starts, so it is, for
>>>>>>>>a nanosecond, kind of like an "r," and then the tip of the
>>>>>>>>tongue taps (flicks) against the ridge of gum, so the sound is,
>>>>>>>>for a nanosecond, kind of like an "l," but it's just a flick,
>>>>>>>>and the sound almost instantaneously becomes one of the vowels
>>>>>>>>$B$"!"$$!"$&!"(B
>>>>>>>>$B$((B or $B$*(B. In a sense, the famous confusion of "l" and "r" comes
>>>>>>>>about because the Japanese sound closest to either of them is
>>>>>>>>sort of both of them, but neither.
>>>>>>>>Why not mimic the Spanish trill (that rrrrrr thing) and then
>>>>>>>>just slice out one of them. There you will be, pretty much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wow, are you talking about the r in American English? I don't
>>>>>>>think it has anything at all to do with the Japanese r. The
>>>>>>>tongue is completely diffferent. If your talking about the
>>>>>>>British r, I might agree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, are you "wowing" about an initial r, a post-vocalic r or a
>>>>>>post-consonantal r?
>>>>>>Say the word "rotunda." If you aren't doing something at the start
>>>>>>of that word that is similar to what I describe above, then you
>>>>>>are speaking some variety of English with which I am unacquainted.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My point is, when I say rotunda, the position of my tongue and
>>>>>mouth has virtually nothing whatsoever to do with positioning for
>>>>>the Japanese r. With Rotunda, mout is round, cheeks are pulled in,
>>>>>side of tongue is touching the back of my teeth, tip of tongue is
>>>>>spread out, etc. With Japanese r, mouth is a little more pulled
>>>>>back, not rounded, tip of tongue is lightly touching the roof of
>>>>>my mouth in preparation for the light flick and sides of tongue
>>>>>are touching nothing. Couldn't be any different.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes it could. It could be way different. Your untrained intuition
>>>>may be leading you astray here.
>>>>Anyway, the one is an alveolar tap, the other is an alveolar
>>>>approximant. The tip of the tongue and the alveolar ridge are key
>>>>points for both sounds. I stand by my description of the
>>>>articulation. I did some of your homework for you; check out the
>>>>following URL. http://tinyurl.com/5bt55
>>>>I also discovered this one, to my great surprise:
>>>>http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/japanese-r.html
>>>
>>>
>>>I still don't buy it. However the linguists choose to describe
>>>these, the notion that the pronunciation of the English r
>>>(particularly the initial r as in the word rotunda) and the Japanese
>>>r are similar in any way is one that is certain only to confuse
>>>learners. The differences that are pointed out for the purpose of
>>>distinguishing the two are huge in my opinion.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>
>>So, for the sake of your pedagogical theory, we should ignore the
>>plain facts? I don't think so. I've led hundreds of teenagers from
>>the swamp of not being able to say $B$i$j$k$l$m(B to the joyous, sunlit
>>highlands of
>>being able to do so. Even Ben Bullock, who passionately detested me,
>>saw fit to adapt an ancient post of mine and stick it in his FAQ, a
>>fact I only discovered today. But anyway, there it is. However you
>>think you are producing initial r, I am confident that it sounds like
>>an r to other people.
> 
> I have no doubt that they sound similar to other people. 

I didn't think that was what Sean meant.  I took it that he granted you
could pronounce initial "r"s in the two languages under discussion in
the proper manner for each language even if you didn't notice they both
involve curving the tongue upward, etc.

> There is obviously
> a reason why the Japanese consonant has come to be expressed in romaji with
> the letter r (although when I hear un-trained Americans say Japanese words
> that have rs in them, I sometimes seriously wonder if "l" wouldn't have been
> a better choice.) 

I bet the people who voted for "r" noticed that it sounded like the
familiar Spanish "r," and maybe like the Portuguese,  and the "r" of
certain British dialects, etc.  How does the Dutch "r" sound?  American
English didn't carry nearly that much weight in the world in those days.

Some romanizations of Korean use "l" to write a sound that is
indistinguishable to my less-than-perfect ear from Japanese "r."

> I'm just questioning whether they are similar enough
> inside the mouth to draw parallels when explaining to someone else how to
> pronounce the Japanese r. I think the morphing distance from the English l
> to the Japanese r is much shorter (and a more intuitive starting point) than
> the morphing distance from English r to Japanese r. That's all.

Sure.  But a slightly different story as I read recent posts in this thread.

Bart

Bart Mathias wrote:

>> I have no doubt that they sound similar to other people.
>
> I didn't think that was what Sean meant.  I took it that he granted
> you could pronounce initial "r"s in the two languages under
> discussion in
> the proper manner for each language even if you didn't notice they
> both involve curving the tongue upward, etc.
>
>> There is obviously
>> a reason why the Japanese consonant has come to be expressed in
>> romaji with the letter r (although when I hear un-trained Americans
>> say Japanese words that have rs in them, I sometimes seriously
>> wonder if "l" wouldn't have been a better choice.)
>
> I bet the people who voted for "r" noticed that it sounded like the
> familiar Spanish "r," and maybe like the Portuguese,  and the "r" of
> certain British dialects, etc.  How does the Dutch "r" sound?
> American English didn't carry nearly that much weight in the world in
> those days.

Exactly. It's just unfortunate that none of these people back in the 16th
century had the foresight to picture a bunch of Americans running around
Japan trying to pronounce "ryu" when describing the style of karate they are
studying...

Jeff