🚀 go-pugleaf

>The west coast events I have attended (Sears Point and Phoenix) have been
>very pleasant with no sign (luckily) of the behavior you saw.
>
Fortunately a lot of posts in this thread are expressing a similar
thing.  Perhaps an unlucky combination of troublemakers just happen to
be in my area alone.  I hope so.

>>>but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so early.<<
>
>If there isn't a car crawling in your trunk, apexing early and creating as
>long a straight line as possible can significantly increase speed. Watch the
>line taken by most drivers during qualifying. During the race this leaves
>the door wide open so it usually isn't done.

Thanks for the good information! I've never had a chance to catch
qualifying, (and it's never occured to me to ask, though I've always
noticed this) but your comments imply to me that they do in fact appex
closer to "top dead center" when the track is empty. Appexing early is
indeed the proper way to shut the door.  Still, I noticed many cars
with no-one close behind were still appexing early.  Does the slope
into the turn have anything to do with it?  Dover does not have a very
smooth transition between the straights and the turns like, say,
Daytona.  There is a  noticeable downhill *bump* as you turn in (or
uphill as you exit) with the cars  looking like they come close to
bottoming out.  It would be interesting to see how this might affect
an Irl cars performance if they ever go there.

deager@erols.com wrote:
>

> All you have to do is monitor the rec.autos.sport.nascar newsgroup to
> see that a significant number of these so-called race fans that follow
> NASCAR are low class know nothings.  I have never seen so many personal
> attacks on drivers, teams, manufacturers and even drivers' wives.  True
> race fans never root against anyone or anything involved with the sport,
> but rather cheer for and admire close, safe racing.  Sorry you had such
> a bad experience.  Try a sports car event!

So I guess all of us are supposed to sit there like good little boys and
girls and say things like, "Go Kyle...whoops I am sorry sir I did not
mean to offend you since you are a Gordon fan!" Or, "Go Mark Martin...
but.... you know, Gordon is such a nice guy and Dale is running well and
Ricky looks good out there so I think I will just pull for them all."

I guess true Washington Redskin fans should love the Dallas Cowboys. I
guess true Alabama fans should love Auburn. Yeah right. I wonder if YOU
are a TRUE racing fan.

Glenn

Having attended both NHIS events this year, I'd have to say this is NOT the
case at NHIS. At both events, I was impressed by the demeanor and respect
of the crowd.

NOT true of a football event I attended - never, ever, again!

I hope your experience was an isolated one.

ChrisB@media.pa wrote in article <343bd2fc.706954671@news2.voicenet.com>...
> My brothers and I have been attending races in the Delaware Valley
> (general Philly area) since 1970. In fact our first race was the '70
> Mason Dixon 300 won by Richard Petty in that blue Superbird.
>
> For the past few years our schedule has included one Cart race at
> Nazareth, at least one World of Outlaws race at Bridgeport, Grandview,
> or Williams Grove, and the Sept. Nascar race at Dover. (as well as the
> occasional short-track or drag-racing event)
>
> Upon arriving today at an uncharacteristically late 11:30am due to the
> massive traffic, (we are usually there by 10:00) we were greeted with
> obnoxious comments from the inebriates who were occupying our seats
> who had to slide over, as well as comments from some others in the
> aisle below whom we did not even affect!  I have never encountered
> this at a Cart or Sprint event. These  people were not exceptions
> ...there were many empty beer cans and plenty of tipsy behavior to be
> found before noon...of both genders...which only increased as the
> afternoon wore on.  I don't think it's appropriate to be falling over
> drunk or cursing and flipping Jeff or Dale the bird in the presence of
> kids...or anyone.
>
> I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
> here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
> like this. Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
> (nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
> sport...very much the way Nascar was in the seventies as I remember
> it.  In Nascar's growth, the race fans  have been slowly overwhelmed
> through the years by a sea of rowdy drunks who are mainly interested
> in a big party.
>
> As for the race itself, it was fine. Very clean with no major
> accidents and only one yellow.  I'm used to Dover being mostly a one
> groove track...but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so
> early. It was nice to see Kyle out in front for a while, and I'm happy
> that Mark finally won one here.
>
> I think it might be interesting if the Irl comes to Dover...but if
> not, next years ticket renewal money is definitely going towards more
> World of Outlaws events!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In rec.autos.sport.indy ChrisB@media.pa wrote:

: I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
: here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
: like this.

At Portland this year, I think there was as much beer sold to the 5,000
watching the NASCAR NW support race as was sold to the 75,000 CART fans on
race day (although the Sunday was colder and wetter...)


: Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
: (nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
: sport

I agree again. The sprinters and modified races the Friday night of the
Portland CART weekend attracted a large, polite and knowledgable crowd to
the local oval...

bp/ed/ab/ca/eh?

ChrisB@media.pa wrote:
>
> My brothers and I have been attending races in the Delaware Valley
> (general Philly area) since 1970. In fact our first race was the '70
> Mason Dixon 300 won by Richard Petty in that blue Superbird.
>
> For the past few years our schedule has included one Cart race at
> Nazareth, at least one World of Outlaws race at Bridgeport, Grandview,
> or Williams Grove, and the Sept. Nascar race at Dover. (as well as the
> occasional short-track or drag-racing event)
>
> Upon arriving today at an uncharacteristically late 11:30am due to the
> massive traffic, (we are usually there by 10:00) we were greeted with
> obnoxious comments from the inebriates who were occupying our seats
> who had to slide over, as well as comments from some others in the
> aisle below whom we did not even affect!  I have never encountered
> this at a Cart or Sprint event. These  people were not exceptions
> ...there were many empty beer cans and plenty of tipsy behavior to be
> found before noon...of both genders...which only increased as the
> afternoon wore on.  I don't think it's appropriate to be falling over
> drunk or cursing and flipping Jeff or Dale the bird in the presence of
> kids...or anyone.
>
> I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
> here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
> like this. Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
> (nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
> sport...very much the way Nascar was in the seventies as I remember
> it.  In Nascar's growth, the race fans  have been slowly overwhelmed
> through the years by a sea of rowdy drunks who are mainly interested
> in a big party.
>
> As for the race itself, it was fine. Very clean with no major
> accidents and only one yellow.  I'm used to Dover being mostly a one
> groove track...but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so
> early. It was nice to see Kyle out in front for a while, and I'm happy
> that Mark finally won one here.
>
> I think it might be interesting if the Irl comes to Dover...but if
> not, next years ticket renewal money is definitely going towards more
> World of Outlaws events!
***
All you have to do is monitor the rec.autos.sport.nascar newsgroup to
see that a significant number of these so-called race fans that follow
NASCAR are low class know nothings.  I have never seen so many personal
attacks on drivers, teams, manufacturers and even drivers' wives.  True
race fans never root against anyone or anything involved with the sport,
but rather cheer for and admire close, safe racing.  Sorry you had such
a bad experience.  Try a sports car event!

The west coast events I have attended (Sears Point and Phoenix) have been
very pleasant with no sign (luckily) of the behavior you saw.

>>but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so early.<<

If there isn't a car crawling in your trunk, apexing early and creating as
long a straight line as possible can significantly increase speed. Watch the
line taken by most drivers during qualifying. During the race this leaves
the door wide open so it usually isn't done. A good example from yesterday
is when KP was passing JG. Gordon was on the high groove into the corner but
since he was able to straighten the car out sooner, his straight line speed
kept him beside Petty for a couple laps even though he couldn't get through
the corner as fast.
 __________________
lee

ChrisB@media.pa wrote in message <343bd2fc.706954671@news2.voicenet.com>...
>My brothers and I have been attending races in the Delaware Valley
>(general Philly area) since 1970. In fact our first race was the '70
>Mason Dixon 300 won by Richard Petty in that blue Superbird.
>
>For the past few years our schedule has included one Cart race at
>Nazareth, at least one World of Outlaws race at Bridgeport, Grandview,
>or Williams Grove, and the Sept. Nascar race at Dover. (as well as the
>occasional short-track or drag-racing event)
>
>Upon arriving today at an uncharacteristically late 11:30am due to the
>massive traffic, (we are usually there by 10:00) we were greeted with
>obnoxious comments from the inebriates who were occupying our seats
>who had to slide over, as well as comments from some others in the
>aisle below whom we did not even affect!  I have never encountered
>this at a Cart or Sprint event. These  people were not exceptions
>...there were many empty beer cans and plenty of tipsy behavior to be
>found before noon...of both genders...which only increased as the
>afternoon wore on.  I don't think it's appropriate to be falling over
>drunk or cursing and flipping Jeff or Dale the bird in the presence of
>kids...or anyone.
>
>I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
>here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
>like this. Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
>(nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
>sport...very much the way Nascar was in the seventies as I remember
>it.  In Nascar's growth, the race fans  have been slowly overwhelmed
>through the years by a sea of rowdy drunks who are mainly interested
>in a big party.
>
>As for the race itself, it was fine. Very clean with no major
>accidents and only one yellow.  I'm used to Dover being mostly a one
>groove track...but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so
>early. It was nice to see Kyle out in front for a while, and I'm happy
>that Mark finally won one here.
>
>I think it might be interesting if the Irl comes to Dover...but if
>not, next years ticket renewal money is definitely going towards more
>World of Outlaws events!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I agree with Randy.  I went to the 96 BY400.  With over 300,000 people
there you'd expect some bad behavior.  But I saw none at all.  Everyone was
absolutely courteous.  Several people I talked to in various places around
the city afterwards kept talking about how civil the audience was compared
to the 500 crowd.

--
-Kev

Randy Carver <carverr@NOSPAM.elcsci.com> wrote in article
<01bcc769$c1544470$0201a8c0@carverr>...
> Having attended both NHIS events this year, I'd have to say this is NOT
the
> case at NHIS. At both events, I was impressed by the demeanor and respect
> of the crowd.
>
> NOT true of a football event I attended - never, ever, again!
>
> I hope your experience was an isolated one.
>
> ChrisB@media.pa wrote in article
<343bd2fc.706954671@news2.voicenet.com>...
> > My brothers and I have been attending races in the Delaware Valley
> > (general Philly area) since 1970. In fact our first race was the '70
> > Mason Dixon 300 won by Richard Petty in that blue Superbird.
> >
> > For the past few years our schedule has included one Cart race at
> > Nazareth, at least one World of Outlaws race at Bridgeport, Grandview,
> > or Williams Grove, and the Sept. Nascar race at Dover. (as well as the
> > occasional short-track or drag-racing event)
> >
> > Upon arriving today at an uncharacteristically late 11:30am due to the
> > massive traffic, (we are usually there by 10:00) we were greeted with
> > obnoxious comments from the inebriates who were occupying our seats
> > who had to slide over, as well as comments from some others in the
> > aisle below whom we did not even affect!  I have never encountered
> > this at a Cart or Sprint event. These  people were not exceptions
> > ...there were many empty beer cans and plenty of tipsy behavior to be
> > found before noon...of both genders...which only increased as the
> > afternoon wore on.  I don't think it's appropriate to be falling over
> > drunk or cursing and flipping Jeff or Dale the bird in the presence of
> > kids...or anyone.
> >
> > I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
> > here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
> > like this. Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
> > (nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
> > sport...very much the way Nascar was in the seventies as I remember
> > it.  In Nascar's growth, the race fans  have been slowly overwhelmed
> > through the years by a sea of rowdy drunks who are mainly interested
> > in a big party.
> >
> > As for the race itself, it was fine. Very clean with no major
> > accidents and only one yellow.  I'm used to Dover being mostly a one
> > groove track...but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so
> > early. It was nice to see Kyle out in front for a while, and I'm happy
> > that Mark finally won one here.
> >
> > I think it might be interesting if the Irl comes to Dover...but if
> > not, next years ticket renewal money is definitely going towards more
> > World of Outlaws events!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

G. Murphy wrote:
>
> deager@erols.com wrote:
> >
>
> > All you have to do is monitor the rec.autos.sport.nascar newsgroup to
> > see that a significant number of these so-called race fans that follow
> > NASCAR are low class know nothings.  I have never seen so many personal
> > attacks on drivers, teams, manufacturers and even drivers' wives.  True
> > race fans never root against anyone or anything involved with the sport,
> > but rather cheer for and admire close, safe racing.  Sorry you had such
> > a bad experience.  Try a sports car event!
>
> So I guess all of us are supposed to sit there like good little boys and
> girls and say things like, "Go Kyle...whoops I am sorry sir I did not
> mean to offend you since you are a Gordon fan!" Or, "Go Mark Martin...
> but.... you know, Gordon is such a nice guy and Dale is running well and
> Ricky looks good out there so I think I will just pull for them all."
>
> I guess true Washington Redskin fans should love the Dallas Cowboys. I
> guess true Alabama fans should love Auburn. Yeah right. I wonder if YOU
> are a TRUE racing fan.
>
> Glenn
****
I didn't say one shouldn't cheer FOR their favorite(s).  I just hate to
see these bozos wishing for someone to crash or meet with some other
misfortune.  I think attacking peoples wives and families goes a little
far, don't you?

Randy Carver wrote:
>
> Having attended both NHIS events this year, I'd have to say this is NOT the
> case at NHIS. At both events, I was impressed by the demeanor and respect
> of the crowd.
>
> NOT true of a football event I attended - never, ever, again!
>
> I hope your experience was an isolated one.
>
> ChrisB@media.pa wrote in article <343bd2fc.706954671@news2.voicenet.com>...
> > My brothers and I have been attending races in the Delaware Valley
> > (general Philly area) since 1970. In fact our first race was the '70
> > Mason Dixon 300 won by Richard Petty in that blue Superbird.
> >
> > For the past few years our schedule has included one Cart race at
> > Nazareth, at least one World of Outlaws race at Bridgeport, Grandview,
> > or Williams Grove, and the Sept. Nascar race at Dover. (as well as the
> > occasional short-track or drag-racing event)
> >
> > Upon arriving today at an uncharacteristically late 11:30am due to the
> > massive traffic, (we are usually there by 10:00) we were greeted with
> > obnoxious comments from the inebriates who were occupying our seats
> > who had to slide over, as well as comments from some others in the
> > aisle below whom we did not even affect!  I have never encountered
> > this at a Cart or Sprint event. These  people were not exceptions
> > ...there were many empty beer cans and plenty of tipsy behavior to be
> > found before noon...of both genders...which only increased as the
> > afternoon wore on.  I don't think it's appropriate to be falling over
> > drunk or cursing and flipping Jeff or Dale the bird in the presence of
> > kids...or anyone.
> >
> > I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
> > here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
> > like this. Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
> > (nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
> > sport...very much the way Nascar was in the seventies as I remember
> > it.  In Nascar's growth, the race fans  have been slowly overwhelmed
> > through the years by a sea of rowdy drunks who are mainly interested
> > in a big party.
> >
> > As for the race itself, it was fine. Very clean with no major
> > accidents and only one yellow.  I'm used to Dover being mostly a one
> > groove track...but I always wonder why everyone apexes in the turns so
> > early. It was nice to see Kyle out in front for a while, and I'm happy
> > that Mark finally won one here.
> >
> > I think it might be interesting if the Irl comes to Dover...but if
> > not, next years ticket renewal money is definitely going towards more
> > World of Outlaws events!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>I too have attended all but the first Winston Cup race and a few Busch races at Loudon and i have never see anything near what you experainced at Dover, Hope it never happens again to  you.I have also attended a few Cup races at Daytona and Charlott and have had a very pleasant time at both tracks.

Well, I'm really sorry that your experience wasn't what you expected.  I
do think that if you are going to spend that much money on tickets you
need to at least enjoy yourselves.  I really do wonder, though, why
people go to outdoor sporting events where the competition is high and
the beer is plenty and expect people to NOT act that way.  In all my
travels, that's the way it's done.  It doesn't make it right, but it's
happened over and over again and I hate to seem like a pessimist here,
but I come to expect that type of behavoir. If I don't want me or my kid
to see it, then I don't go.  If my field of view isn't obstructed and no
one pukes on me, then I consider it a good day.  In general, Talladega's
fans seem ok. There are many sections at Talladega that are "family
oriented", but man, I've also seen some pretty rough stuff in the stands
during a race.  And you don't even want to know what goes on at the
campgrounds before and after the race...

Jody

Drunk obnoxious hillbillies at a NASCAR race?  Are you sure?

deager@erols.com wrote:
>
> G. Murphy wrote:
> >
> > deager@erols.com wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > All you have to do is monitor the rec.autos.sport.nascar newsgroup to
> > > see that a significant number of these so-called race fans that follow
> > > NASCAR are low class know nothings.  I have never seen so many personal
> > > attacks on drivers, teams, manufacturers and even drivers' wives.  True
> > > race fans never root against anyone or anything involved with the sport,
> > > but rather cheer for and admire close, safe racing.  Sorry you had such
> > > a bad experience.  Try a sports car event!
> >
> > So I guess all of us are supposed to sit there like good little boys and
> > girls and say things like, "Go Kyle...whoops I am sorry sir I did not
> > mean to offend you since you are a Gordon fan!" Or, "Go Mark Martin...
> > but.... you know, Gordon is such a nice guy and Dale is running well and
> > Ricky looks good out there so I think I will just pull for them all."
> >
> > I guess true Washington Redskin fans should love the Dallas Cowboys. I
> > guess true Alabama fans should love Auburn. Yeah right. I wonder if YOU
> > are a TRUE racing fan.
> >
> > Glenn
> ****
> I didn't say one shouldn't cheer FOR their favorite(s).  I just hate to
> see these bozos wishing for someone to crash or meet with some other
> misfortune.  I think attacking peoples wives and families goes a little
> far, don't you?

Not if they are Alabama fans.

Rex Lawrence wrote:
>
> deager@erols.com wrote:

> Not if they are Alabama fans.


HEY, I resemble that remark.... Sheesh !   :)
--
Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl
GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,,
                                                        Handy^man

Steve Zivkovic wrote:

> Drunk obnoxious hillbillies at a NASCAR race?  Are you
> sure?

And they say the sport has no class.

Steve Zivkovic wrote:

> Drunk obnoxious hillbillies at a NASCAR race? Are you
> sure?
>
> Let me paraphrase how a weekend in the Talledega (sic?)
> infield was
> described to me:  "We was all gettin' f**ked up, girls was
> showin' their
> titties, it was a big party, but it was cool there was no
> fights or
> nothin'."
>
> Maybe I'm getting old but it's been a long time since I've
> considered the
> amount of fights at an event as a criteria.

Sounds like Darlington, Daytona, and every other track on
the circuit.  Now there was this time in Darlington where we
watched a girl beat the beejeepers out of her boyfriend.
See they were drinking the beverage with the worm in it,
straight out of this huge bottle.  They started screaming at
each other, and she just started punching him, first left,
then right and so on.  I mean she was beating the tar out of
this guy.  Now mind you this was Saturday, during the Busch
race.  On our way back to the motel the other half and I
decided that by morning one of them would be dead.  So,
Sunday morning we pull in right where we were the day
before, and there he was with a cast from his toes to his
hip.  We asked a South Carolina patrol guy on duty what
happened, he said "the guy said he fell down."  As Al says
on Home Improvement: "I don't think so Tim!"

Drunk obnoxious hillbillies at a NASCAR race? Are you sure?

Let me paraphrase how a weekend in the Talledega (sic?) infield was
described to me:  "We was all gettin' f**ked up, girls was showin' their
titties, it was a big party, but it was cool there was no fights or
nothin'."

Maybe I'm getting old but it's been a long time since I've considered the
amount of fights at an event as a criteria.

ChrisB@media.pa wrote:
<SNIP>
: I can't speak for other areas of the country, but from what I see
: here, Nascar's audience has gone completely downhill.  Cart is nothing
: like this. Even sprint cars which attract a largely blue collar crowd
: (nothing wrong with that)  are well-behaved and knowledgable of the
: sport...very much the way Nascar was in the seventies as I remember
: it.  In Nascar's growth, the race fans  have been slowly overwhelmed
: through the years by a sea of rowdy drunks who are mainly interested
: in a big party.

Unfortunately that's what happens when things get bigger and more popular.
The same thing happened with the Grateful Dead in '86 when Touch of Grey /
In The Dark came out. The "Fans" have to set good examples for the
newbies.
Aloha, Henry
GO #3

How did rasi get mixed up with rasn? Bad crowd!
--
Tom Krill

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/einsteinfoyt/index.html
http://home.att.net/~curtisturner/
                  ________________________________/
                        "THE ROPE OF YOUR JUSTICE
           ALWAYS HANGS BEFORE ME" -krill
                   ________________________________/