🚀 go-pugleaf

Steuard Jensen wrote:

> In "Strider", he tells Frodo and the others about the Black Riders and
> says, "They are terrible!"  We then read that, "The hobbits looked at
> him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain,
> and his hands clenched the arms of his chair."

Someone may cite a more recent source, but recall that Aragorn is the Heir
of Arnor. That civilization fell to centuries of brutal attacks from forces
lead by the Witch King.

Question: Weren't the other ring-wraiths involved? Or did only the Witch
King lead Angmar against Arnor?

--
  Phlip
  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Phlip wrote:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:

> Maybe Aragorn had to rescue and treat someone who had formerly enjoyed the
> Nazguls' hospitality.

aragorn was a restaurant critic who shared his creator's taste and
conseuqently only ate mushy meat and potatoes.  unfortunately, the
ringwraiths were known for their elaborate french cooking.  moria, wth
its multicultural combination of balrog, orkish, and dwarvish cuisine,
was even more deadly to him.

Quoth "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> in article
<Ky9xg.11691$2v.7909@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
> > In "Strider", he tells Frodo and the others about the Black Riders and
> > says, "They are terrible!"  We then read that, "The hobbits looked at
> > him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain,
> > and his hands clenched the arms of his chair."

> Someone may cite a more recent source, but recall that Aragorn is
> the Heir of Arnor. That civilization fell to centuries of brutal
> attacks from forces lead by the Witch King.

That's a good point: it's possible that Aragorn is suffering here from
the memory of the terrible things that the Witch King did to his
people in the past.  I guess my impression had always been that this
was a more direct and personal pain than that (as it was in the early
Trotter drafts), but your reading opens another set of possible
explanations (which may be more plausible than Aragorn having been at
some point tortured and terrorized by Nazgul).

> Question: Weren't the other ring-wraiths involved? Or did only the
> Witch King lead Angmar against Arnor?

I've wondered that, too.  I don't recall seeing any suggestion that
the other Nazgul were involved in the fall of Arnor, but I don't know
what else they would have been doing at the time or why they wouldn't
have been there.  Does anyone out there know of more direct evidence
on this?
						Steuard Jensen

Steuard Jensen wrote:

>... but your reading opens another set of possible
> explanations (which may be more plausible than Aragorn having been at
> some point tortured and terrorized by Nazgul).

I really doubt Aragorn could have kept his secrets from direct exposure to a
Nazgul, or that they would have released, uncursed, the Heir of Isildur.

Maybe Aragorn had to rescue and treat someone who had formerly enjoyed the
Nazguls' hospitality.

--
  Phlip
  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Didn't aragorn tell someone (I think it was Boromir), that he had been
to places beyond Gondor? Maybe He went there Searching for Gollum? And
to think Of what the Nazgul Had Done to Gollum Caused Him Pain ? Just
Arbitrary guesses....

Phlip wrote:

>
> I really doubt Aragorn could have kept his secrets from direct exposure to a
> Nazgul, or that they would have released, uncursed, the Heir of Isildur.
>
But he was able to withstand Sauron's questioning in the Palantir.

Pete H

Count Menelvagor wrote:
> Phlip wrote:
>

>
> aragorn was a restaurant critic who shared his creator's taste and
> conseuqently only ate mushy meat and potatoes.

Be easy on the English, now. One of the very best roasts of beef I ever
had was in Portsmouth - roast potatoes and Yorkshire pud into the
bargain. (Now,their coffee . . . the English haven't a clue about coffee
even if they did give the world the coffee house.)

Pete H

>

In message <news:wu9xg.84$25.2078@news.uchicago.edu>
sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) enriched us with:

>

<snip>

> So when had he met the Nazgul before?  And what did they do to
> leave him with such a painful memory?  (I thought that the
> Nazgul had mostly remained hidden away in Minas Morgul until the
> hunt for the Ring.)

In Minas Morgul and in Dol Guldur (after TA2951).

We do know of at least two occasions where Aragorn was near Minas
Morgul. When he left Ecthelion's service, he was travelling from
Anduin towards the Mountains of Shadow, and later he came to
Lothlórien 'from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron
now dwelt again'.

Later on (or at least I guess it belongs to the period between TA
3009 and TA 3017 when Gandalf and Aragorn renewed their hunt for
Gollum), Aragorn describes his search for Gollum saying, 'If a man
must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly
flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have.'

Need he have been captured and tormented by the Nazgûl? It would
suffice for me if he had had some close escapes, feeling the terror
and possibly the Black Breath (have them kill a couple of companions
also, and there's ample grounds for his painful memory, IMO).

> And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he
> said that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when
> he went there before, and what caused the memory to be so
> terrible?

I can't quite escape the feeling that I've read about it somewhere,
but I have no idea of where (or even if it is correct). PoMe,
possibly?

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not
    simpler.
 - Albert Einstein

pmhilton wrote:

> Phlip wrote:
>
>> I really doubt Aragorn could have kept his secrets from direct exposure
>> to a Nazgul, or that they would have released, uncursed, the Heir of
>> Isildur.
>>
> But he was able to withstand Sauron's questioning in the Palantir.

He wouldn't have been able to withstand Sauron _directly_.  Gandalf
recognized that Aragorn had particular strength with respect to the
Palantir.
--
derek

pmhilton wrote:

> But he was able to withstand Sauron's questioning in the Palantir.

As the rightful owner of both the Orthanc and Ithil Stones...

--
  Phlip
  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wroteth:

> And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
> that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
> there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?

Hmmm. I was blithely going to say it was during the search for Gollum, but
Aragorn appears not to have gone there then. Hmmmm. Perhaps he scouted a
short bit of the eastern passages during the earlier, fruitless part of
his search, and that was enough?

Whenever his visit took place, though, I have to suspect it was a
genuinely bad experience - possibly even reaching the category of "abject
failure" - notably because A) he was so dead-set against revisiting Moria
after Caradhras and B) when they were in Moria during the Quest Gandalf
routinely sought Gimli's advice about their surroundings but not his.

...On the other hand, though, perhaps something else is happening here:
maybe Aragorn knew Moria better than _any_ of them. Perhaps during the
errantry of his youth Aragorn routinely went clubbing there, and wanted
to avoid Moria during _LotR_ simply because he didn't want his past
indiscretions being dredged up. In this light it's instructive to note
that under Gandalf's newbie guidance they spent literally days wandering
around lost in there, but the moment Aragorn took command he knew exactly
where to go and had them back outside in ten minutes flat.  :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ohh-aaat-      "I too once passed the Dimrill Gate; but though I also
-drizzle-  came out again, the memory is very evil. Sally. That kegger.
-dawt-com  Even now I cannot abide the sight of a woman wearing
           paisley."

pmhilton wrote:
> Count Menelvagor wrote:
> > Phlip wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > aragorn was a restaurant critic who shared his creator's taste and
> > conseuqently only ate mushy meat and potatoes.
>
> Be easy on the English, now. One of the very best roasts of beef I ever
> had was in Portsmouth - roast potatoes and Yorkshire pud into the
> bargain. (Now,their coffee . . . the English haven't a clue about coffee
> even if they did give the world the coffee house.)

as i recall, they make great desserts.  are jacob's biscuits english?

"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> skrev i en meddelelse
news:wu9xg.84$25.2078@news.uchicago.edu...

> Aragorn has travelled a lot, and survived a lot of unpleasant
> situations.  But I'm rather curious to know what some of those
> situations were. :)

[...]

> So when had he met the Nazgul before?  And what did they do to leave
> him with such a painful memory?  (I thought that the Nazgul had
> mostly remained hidden away in Minas Morgul until the hunt for
> the Ring.)

   Some of them had also occupied Dol Guldur.  Sauron was driven away thence
in the year that Bilbo found the Ring, but it had not been cast down, and
ten years later he sent three Ringwraiths back to reoccupy it (according to
App. B), as a very useful forward base.  The rest of them presumably
remained garrisoned in Minas Morgul.
   So it is possible that Aragorn met Ringwraiths at or near Dol Guldur, or
in Morgul Vale, or between.  Especially in Morgul Vale, and probably less so
at Dol Guldur, Sauron's "imprint" on the land was quite strong, and the
Nazgûls' power very probably stronger there than when they raided Eriador as
they hunted the Ring.  Thus he might have found them more formidable
adversaries then than when he (with the help mainly of Frodo and Frodo's
sword, apparently) drove them back at Weathertop.
   So if he encountered them at or between Morgul Vale and Dol Guldur, what
had he been doing there?  Perhaps when he was searching for Gollum.  Gandalf
tells in the Council of Elrond how Aragorn had walked deadly perils during
that search, and Aragorn elaborates: " If a man must needs walk in sight of
the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he
will have."

> And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
> that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
> there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?

   I cannot guess the occasion.  Perhaps he needed to take a shortcut in a
hurry, or simply wanted to explore.  Perhaps he had been pursuing some of
Sauron's servants who bolted into that hole.  The cause of the terror of his
memory I personally attribute partly to the vast, dark caves, and partly to
the Balrog.  Perhaps the Balrog had become aware of him and bent its
attention upon him, and he escaped because he was lucky or swift enough, or
because the Balrog couldn't be bothered to deal personally with one
intruder - perhaps sending instead orcs (or trusting that they would deal
with the intruder on their own initiative), with Aragorn escaping them
because he was greater than they or the Balrog reckoned with.
   Not that Aragorn needed have known the identity of the brooding menace -
and obviously he was surprised to learn of the existence of a Balrog when it
emerged before the Fellowship.  It may simply have felt to him as a vast
evil presence.  Unknown, but felt strongly, somewhat similarly to how the
purely imaginary monsters feel to a dark-fearing child in an unlit basement
with lots of open doors yawning oh so silently at him.

Voron.

Count Menelvagor wrote:
> pmhilton wrote:
>
>>Count Menelvagor wrote:
>>
>>>Phlip wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>aragorn was a restaurant critic who shared his creator's taste and
>>>conseuqently only ate mushy meat and potatoes.
>>
>>Be easy on the English, now. One of the very best roasts of beef I ever
>>had was in Portsmouth - roast potatoes and Yorkshire pud into the
>>bargain. (Now,their coffee . . . the English haven't a clue about coffee
>>even if they did give the world the coffee house.)
>
>
> as i recall, they make great desserts.  are jacob's biscuits english?
>

Dunno. But then a folk who call shortbread style cookery "biscuits" have
    a ways to go yet. To be fair, we've our own culinary sins - foremost
among them is slathering ketchup (catsup???) all over things.

PH

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:wu9xg.84$25.2078@news.uchicago.edu>
> sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) enriched us with:

> > So when had he met the Nazgul before?  And what did they do to
> > leave him with such a painful memory?  (I thought that the
> > Nazgul had mostly remained hidden away in Minas Morgul until the
> > hunt for the Ring.)
>
> In Minas Morgul and in Dol Guldur (after TA2951).
>
> We do know of at least two occasions where Aragorn was near Minas
> Morgul. When he left Ecthelion's service, he was travelling from
> Anduin towards the Mountains of Shadow, and later he came to
> Lothlórien 'from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron
> now dwelt again'.
>
> Later on (or at least I guess it belongs to the period between TA
> 3009 and TA 3017 when Gandalf and Aragorn renewed their hunt for
> Gollum), Aragorn describes his search for Gollum saying, 'If a man
> must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly
> flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have.'
>
> Need he have been captured and tormented by the Nazgûl? It would
> suffice for me if he had had some close escapes, feeling the terror
> and possibly the Black Breath (have them kill a couple of companions
> also, and there's ample grounds for his painful memory, IMO).

Wasn't he travelling alone all those years though (with the exception
of seeing Gandalf on occassion)?


I think Tolkien offered an alternate explanation in the quote:

'For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in a distant
memory or listening to sounds in the Night far away.
'There!' he cried after a moment, drawing his hand across his brow.

Is it possible that it was actually the latter, rather than a memory?
Maybe another skill of Aragorn's, which allowed him to locate/identify
the Nazgul?  While Men are not bestowed any gifts of 'magic,' this
would not entirely apply to Aragorn.  If he is remembering an instance,
doesn't the sudden exclamation of 'There!' seem out of place?
 
 peace,

steve

pmhilton wrote:

> Dunno. But then a folk who call shortbread style cookery "biscuits" have
>     a ways to go yet. To be fair, we've our own culinary sins - foremost
> among them is slathering ketchup (catsup???) all over things.

Do not blaspheme!  Catsup is the sacred substance, the limpe of the
Valar.

Steuard Jensen wrote:
> Good to see you, O. :)
>
> Quoth "O. Sharp" <ohh@drizzle.com> in article
> <1153840833.534045@bubbleator.drizzle.com>:
>
>>Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wroteth:
>>
>>>And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
>>>that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
>>>there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?
>
>
>>Whenever his visit took place, though, I have to suspect it was a
>>genuinely bad experience - possibly even reaching the category of "abject
>>failure" - notably because A) he was so dead-set against revisiting Moria
>>after Caradhras and B) when they were in Moria during the Quest Gandalf
>>routinely sought Gimli's advice about their surroundings but not his.
>
>
> I hadn't even thought of B); what an interesting point.

I haven't followed this thread so if this has been dealt with, I
apologize.  But doesn't Aragorn say that he has only been in the East
gate, not that he went all the way through? If so, then Gandalf wouldn't
be seeking his advice as they moved westward.


Ah, yes, found what I was looking for at the beginning of "A Journey in
the Dark".  Gandalf is telling the Fellowship about Moria as a path to
take.  Aragorn says, "The road may lead to Moria, but how can we hope
that it will through Moria?"  About a page later, Aragorn says, "I too
once passed the Dimrill Gate (i. e. the eastern gate)," said Aragorn
quietyly, "but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil.  I
do not wish to enter Moria a second time."

I suppose it could be interpreted that "came out again" means he came to
the Western gate, but I don't think so, given his question about the
road, and the most literal understanding of his words is he entered the
Dimrill Gate and CAME OUT OF IT again, not that he went all the way
through Moria.

Good to see you, O. :)

Quoth "O. Sharp" <ohh@drizzle.com> in article
<1153840833.534045@bubbleator.drizzle.com>:
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wroteth:
> > And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
> > that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
> > there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?

> Whenever his visit took place, though, I have to suspect it was a
> genuinely bad experience - possibly even reaching the category of "abject
> failure" - notably because A) he was so dead-set against revisiting Moria
> after Caradhras and B) when they were in Moria during the Quest Gandalf
> routinely sought Gimli's advice about their surroundings but not his.

I hadn't even thought of B); what an interesting point.

> ...On the other hand, though, perhaps something else is happening here:
> maybe Aragorn knew Moria better than _any_ of them.
[snip]

Yeah, I've missed having you around. :)

						Steuard Jensen

"O. Sharp" <ohh@drizzle.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1153840833.534045@bubbleator.drizzle.com...

And WB! :-)

> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wroteth:
>
>> And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
>> that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
>> there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?
>
> Hmmm. I was blithely going to say it was during the search for Gollum, but
> Aragorn appears not to have gone there then. Hmmmm. Perhaps he scouted a
> short bit of the eastern passages during the earlier, fruitless part of
> his search, and that was enough?
>
> Whenever his visit took place, though, I have to suspect it was a
> genuinely bad experience - possibly even reaching the category of "abject
> failure" - notably because A) he was so dead-set against revisiting Moria
> after Caradhras and B) when they were in Moria during the Quest Gandalf
> routinely sought Gimli's advice about their surroundings but not his.

I suppose thast Gimli, being a Dwarf and furthermore of the line that had
ruled Moria for millennia, would feel more familiar with the place and have
knowledge about it handed down through the generations. On the other hand,
as you briefly refer to we know that Aragorn entered Moria through the East
Gate, so it probably makes sense that he has some knowledge about that part
of the place but not much about the rest of it.

Öjevind

I have read this thread with great interest and I think that maybe all
suggestions given on Aragorn's fears for Moria are in some way correct.
Probably it is a combination of factors:

1. The Dunédain kings always had some kind of foresight
2. He had visited Moria on one or more occasions and he must have felt
a dark presence in the Black Pit and/or was hunted on by it.
3. Celeborn had always feared that 'some dark terror in Moria' and
being Aragorn's grandfather-in-law he could have shared this fear with
him.
4. Aragorn was educated in the total history of Middle-Earth, from the
elder days until his own time. He must have known of the disaster
Khazad-Dûm had suffered, though he might not have known what caused
it.


Greetings,
Ijen

Zoroaster wrote:

> 4. Aragorn was educated in the total history of Middle-Earth, from
> the elder days until his own time. He must have known of the disaster
> Khazad-Dûm had suffered, though he might not have known what
> caused it.

5. Gandalf is Olorin ("God of Wisdom"?), and A has studied Eldar religion.
    Regardless whether he knows what Gandalf is.

--
  Phlip
  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "O. Sharp" <ohh@drizzle.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:1153840833.534045@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>
> And WB! :-)
>
>
>>Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wroteth:
>>
>>
>>>And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
>>>that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
>>>there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?
>>
>>Hmmm. I was blithely going to say it was during the search for Gollum, but
>>Aragorn appears not to have gone there then. Hmmmm. Perhaps he scouted a
>>short bit of the eastern passages during the earlier, fruitless part of
>>his search, and that was enough?
>>
>>Whenever his visit took place, though, I have to suspect it was a
>>genuinely bad experience - possibly even reaching the category of "abject
>>failure" - notably because A) he was so dead-set against revisiting Moria
>>after Caradhras and B) when they were in Moria during the Quest Gandalf
>>routinely sought Gimli's advice about their surroundings but not his.
>
>
> I suppose thast Gimli, being a Dwarf and furthermore of the line that had
> ruled Moria for millennia, would feel more familiar with the place and have
> knowledge about it handed down through the generations. On the other hand,
> as you briefly refer to we know that Aragorn entered Moria through the East
> Gate, so it probably makes sense that he has some knowledge about that part
> of the place but not much about the rest of it.

That and Gimli wouldn't be bothered by the dark or by being underground,
and so wouldn't lose his head or his sense of direction.  But the text
is explicit that Gimli was little help except by courage and support.

As for Aragorn, I'd suggest depending on his comments in The Ring Goes
South and A Journey in the Dark that he both entered and exited the East
Gate, and so has no knowledge whatsoever of more than very eastern part
of Moria.

In message
<news:1153927897.506123.208080@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
"stevehim@yahoo.com" <stevehim@yahoo.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>

Steuard was asking about the nature of Aragorn's painful memories;
the cause of Aragorn's reaction in Bree when telling the Hobbits
about the Black Riders (as they are still called at that point) that
"They are terrible!"

      The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that
    his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched
    the arms of his chair. The room was very quiet and still,
    and the light seemed to have grown dim. For a while he sat
    with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory or
    listening to sounds in the Night far away.
      'There!' he cried after a moment, drawing his hand across
    his brow. 'Perhaps I know more about these pursuers than
    you do. You fear them, but you do not fear them enough,
    yet. [...].
  [LotR I,10 'Strider']

In particular: is there a specific "distant memory" that is referred
to here?


I said:
>> Need he have been captured and tormented by the Nazgûl? It would
>> suffice for me if he had had some close escapes, feeling the
>> terror and possibly the Black Breath (have them kill a couple of
>> companions also, and there's ample grounds for his painful
>> memory, IMO).
>
> Wasn't he travelling alone all those years though (with the
> exception of seeing Gandalf on occassion)?

While I agree that Aragorn would have travelled mostly on his own,
there are known exceptions. For instance the time when he was serving
first Thengel, then Ecthelion as Thorongil, but also he seems to have
travelled quite a bit in the company of Elrond's sons, and who knows
which other companions might have joined with that group.

I do agree that the idea that Aragorn might have seen companions
captured and tormented by Nazgûl (or at least seen them come back as
wrecks of the torture) is, perhaps, less likely than a purely
personal encounter, I don't think the probability to be low enough to
dismiss the idea.

> I think Tolkien offered an alternate explanation in the quote:

[The passage beginning 'For a while he sat [...]' in the text quoted
above]


A very interesting idea, and one which, though I can't agree with it,
I do find attractive from the point of view of a reader who wishes to
enhance and increase the amount of mysticism and magic in the book.
Alas, however, I find that there is too much that speaks against it.

> Is it possible that it was actually the latter, rather than a
> memory?

I don't think that the mere exclamation of 'There!' in and off itself
suggests anything other than would e.g. 'Now then!' The exclamation
in itself is, IMO, perfectly consistent with merely a return to the
'here and now', though that, obviously, does not preclude another
reading.

There is also the story-external evidence, which Steuard added --
that the passage originally referred to the actual capture and
torment of the character Trotter (Strider's precursor) by the Nazgûl.
While this, again, doesn't lend any certainty to correct reading of
the passage later, it does, IMO, point to a similar explanation to
hold for Aragorn.

> Maybe another skill of Aragorn's, which allowed him to locate/
> identify the Nazgul?

I would be surprised if that was the case. Not only are there no
further indications of such a skill, even when it would have been
most useful (e.g. at Weathertop or during the flight to the Ford of
Bruinen when they didn't know where all the Ringwraiths were), but it
would also seem to me quite unbalancing for the overall plot if
Aragorn should be possessed of additional supernatural skills (i.e.
beyond his ability to heal and his occasional foresight).

Also it does not, to me, seem an example of the 'foresight of his
kindred', since this is usually clearly marked as such.

> While Men are not bestowed any gifts of 'magic,' this would not
> entirely apply to Aragorn.

Right. Even when Tolkien was (erroneously as it were) denying any
gift of magic to men in letter #155, he was careful to leave the
possibility of a weak (healing) magic to Aragorn (foresight is
elsewhere described explicitly as a gift from Eru). Tolkien is,
however, careful only to mention Aragorn's healing gift:

      Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story
    is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is
    in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as
    such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical',
    or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic'
    processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who
    have very little notions of philosophy and science; while
    A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the
    'children of Luthien'.[2]
  [2] Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written:
     'But the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?'
[Letter #155 To Naomi Mitchison (unsent draft), 1954]

> If he is remembering an instance, doesn't the sudden exclamation
> of 'There!' seem out of place?

Not to me, as I implied above. To me the exclamation of 'There!' has
always indicated merely a return to the here and now and the matters
at hand. He might, IMO, as well have exclaimed 'Well!', 'Now, then!'
or 'Okay!' without changing the meaning of this passage.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

    The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
    same level of thinking with which we created them.
 - Albert Einstein

Phlip wrote:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> >... but your reading opens another set of possible
> > explanations (which may be more plausible than Aragorn having been at
> > some point tortured and terrorized by Nazgul).
>
> I really doubt Aragorn could have kept his secrets from direct exposure to a
> Nazgul, or that they would have released, uncursed, the Heir of Isildur.

I don't doubt at all that he potentially _could_.  Remember, Aragorn
challenged Sauron himself, via the _palantir_, and won.  Granted that
was at a remove, but it's still a far greater power and a far greater
challenge than any Nazgul.  Aragorn is the strongest Man in the world
in his time (using the word 'strong' in terms of spirit and will and
strength of character).  He's the most Elendil-like of all the
descendents of Elendil.

> Maybe Aragorn had to rescue and treat someone who had formerly enjoyed the
> Nazguls' hospitality.

Remember, Aragorn is already an old man by ordinary standards at the
start of LOTR.  We're never told much about his various adventures and
challenges after he reached first maturity and before he met Frodo and
Co., but we know there were many.  He's ridden in disguise with the
Rohirrm, commanded the forces of Gondor (again in disguise) under
Theoden and his father, passed through Moria, travelled into the Far
South where the stars are strange (in our terms, he was in the Southern
Hemisphere).

We even know that's walked in the Morgul Vale and gotten in and out
alive and sane, and he was the one who actually managed to track down
and capture Gollum, after pursuing him all over Wilderland.

So amid all that, in those untold decades, it's perfectly plausible
that he's had more than one close encounter with a Nazgul.


            Shermanlee

Larry Swain wrote:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
> > Good to see you, O. :)
> >
> > Quoth "O. Sharp" <ohh@drizzle.com> in article
> > <1153840833.534045@bubbleator.drizzle.com>:
> >
> >>Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wroteth:
> >>
> >>>And on another note, Aragorn had been into Moria before, but he said
> >>>that "the memory is very evil".  What was the occasion when he went
> >>>there before, and what caused the memory to be so terrible?
> >
> >
> >>Whenever his visit took place, though, I have to suspect it was a
> >>genuinely bad experience - possibly even reaching the category of "abject
> >>failure" - notably because A) he was so dead-set against revisiting Moria
> >>after Caradhras and B) when they were in Moria during the Quest Gandalf
> >>routinely sought Gimli's advice about their surroundings but not his.
> >
> >
> > I hadn't even thought of B); what an interesting point.
>
> I haven't followed this thread so if this has been dealt with, I
> apologize.  But doesn't Aragorn say that he has only been in the East
> gate, not that he went all the way through? If so, then Gandalf wouldn't
> be seeking his advice as they moved westward.
>
>
> Ah, yes, found what I was looking for at the beginning of "A Journey in
> the Dark".  Gandalf is telling the Fellowship about Moria as a path to
> take.  Aragorn says, "The road may lead to Moria, but how can we hope
> that it will through Moria?"  About a page later, Aragorn says, "I too
> once passed the Dimrill Gate (i. e. the eastern gate)," said Aragorn
> quietyly, "but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil.  I
> do not wish to enter Moria a second time."

There just isn't sufficient data to do more than speculate, the event
might have meant anything.  Just a couple of examples (out of countless
ones) as random speculations:

1.  At some point he was pursuing some enemy, a servant of the Enemy
probably, and the chase led into Moria.  Maybe his quarry got away,
maybe Aragorn caught him, but either way it wasn't a positive
experience.  Just the darkness, the Orcs, the Trolls, maybe an
encounter or two with monsters from deeper down, would be enough to
produce an 'evil memory' either way.  He might also have sensed
something _far_ worse down deep.

2.  During one of his stays in Lothlorien, an elf-child wandered where
s/he shouldn't have and disappeared mysteriously, and Aragorn set out
to find her (outside Lorien, I'd bet on Aragorn being a better tracker
than any of Galadriel's people).  The trail led into Moria, and he went
in and either rescued the child or failed to do so.  Either one could
produce an evil memory.

3.  At some point, Orcs captured Aragorn while he was travelling in the
Vale of Anduin (maybe on his way to or from Lothlorien?) and took him
to Moria.  He _escaped_ from Moria, and the 'memory was very evil'.

You could construct any number of plausible scenarios.

Another thing to consider:  Aragorn is farsighted, and he said to
Gandalf specifically that he should beware if he enters Moria.  Aragorn
may have some premonition that Gandalf would come to a bad end if he
went in, and friendship was warring with tactical judgement.


Shermanlee

Raven wrote:

>    Not that Aragorn needed have known the identity of the brooding menace -
> and obviously he was surprised to learn of the existence of a Balrog when it
> emerged before the Fellowship.  It may simply have felt to him as a vast
> evil presence.  Unknown, but felt strongly, somewhat similarly to how the
> purely imaginary monsters feel to a dark-fearing child in an unlit basement
> with lots of open doors yawning oh so silently at him.
>
> Voron.

Perfectly possible.  Remember too that the Hobbits in Mordor were able
to 'feel' the presence of Sauron in their minds/souls.  Frodo could
sense that presence just as he could sense the Sun by its heat with his
eyes closed.  Likewise the Hobbits all felt the presence of the Nazgul
at Weathertop.  "Senses there are, other than sight and touch", IIRC.

I don't doubt for a moment that Aragorn might sense the presence of
that Balrog if he was in the tunnels, he might even be able to pick up
a hint from close outside.


           Shermanlee

And hello again! Long time, no see ;-)

In message
<news:1155878443.039126.110360@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
"Johnny1a" <shermanlee1@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
> Phlip wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> I really doubt Aragorn could have kept his secrets from direct
>> exposure to a Nazgul, or that they would have released, uncursed,
>> the Heir of Isildur.
>
> I don't doubt at all that he potentially _could_.  Remember,
> Aragorn challenged Sauron himself, via the _palantir_, and won.
> Granted that was at a remove, but it's still a far greater power
> and a far greater challenge than any Nazgul.

To be fair, Aragorn was, at that point, helped greatly by being the
rightful owner of the palantir, just as Denethor was helped by being
a legitimate user of it (which is why Denethor was never turned to
Sauron as was Saruman).

> Aragorn is the strongest Man in the world in his time (using the
> word 'strong' in terms of spirit and will and strength of
> character).  He's the most Elendil-like of all the descendents
> of Elendil.

IIRC, there something in UT about Aragorn being like one of his
ancestors (. . . checking . . .) Yes -- actually connected to the
death of Elendur, Isildur's oldest son:

    So perished Elendur, who should afterwards have been King,
    and as all foretold who knew him, in his strength and
    wisdom, and his majesty without pride, one of the
    greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil, most like to
    his grandsire.[26]
  [26] It is said that in later days those (such as Elrond)
    whose memories recalled him were struck by the great
    likeness to him, in body and mind, of King Elessar, the
    victor in the War of the Ring, in which both the Ring and
    Sauron were ended for ever. Elessar was according to the
    records of the Dúnedain the descendant in the thirty
    eighth degree of Elendur's brother Valandil. So long was
    it before he was avenged. [Author's note.]
[UT 3,I The Disaster of the Gladden Fields]


It is, I think, strongly implied in the book, and in the descriptions
in UT 3,IV 'The Hunt for the Ring' that Aragorn was, personally,
fully capable of withstanding the Nazgûl. Remember what Tolkien said
about the Nazgûl:

    Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear
    which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great
    physical power against the fearless; but what they have,
    and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in
    darkness.
[Letter #210, to Forrest J. Ackerman, June 1958]

And in 'The Hunt for the Ring', we hear the following:

      Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September
    when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the
    southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded
    for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task
    beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still
    have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been
    with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East
    Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dúnedain
    misgave them.
[UT 3,IV 'The Hunt for the Ring' (i)]

The implication here, IMO, is not only that Aragorn would, himself,
have been able to withstand the Nazgûl's terror, but that he might
have been able to inspire his men to do the same. Most likely the
Nazgûl were, in their own right, brilliant fighters, and Aragorn
would probably have been hard-pressed to withstand them for any
prolonged time due to simple numbers -- just as he would have been
hard-pressed to withstand e.g. the nine best fighters of the
Easterlings at the same time.

It is, however, very unlikely, IMO, that Aragorn would have revealed
any secrets to the Nazgûl, even under torture, and should he have
been captured by them, he might have been rescued (even if he
couldn't flee by himself).

<snip>

> So amid all that, in those untold decades, it's perfectly
> plausible that he's had more than one close encounter with a
> Nazgul.

Just about anything is plausible -- even a tour to Dol Guldur after
Sauron removed from there and Khamûl was sent to re-occupy the place.

The point, as you say elsewhere about Aragorn's earlier visit to
Moria, is that there 'just isn't suffient data to do more than
speculate'.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are
    subtle and quick to anger.
 - Gildor Inglorion, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)

Johnny1a wrote:

>> I really doubt Aragorn could have kept his secrets from direct exposure
>> to a
>> Nazgul, or that they would have released, uncursed, the Heir of Isildur.
>
> I don't doubt at all that he potentially _could_.  Remember, Aragorn
> challenged Sauron himself, via the _palantir_, and won.  Granted that
> was at a remove, but it's still a far greater power and a far greater
> challenge than any Nazgul.  Aragorn is the strongest Man in the world
> in his time (using the word 'strong' in terms of spirit and will and
> strength of character).  He's the most Elendil-like of all the
> descendents of Elendil.

The distinction is Aragorn owned both the Palantirs, including Sauron's
stolen one. So Aragorn chose the means of challenging Sauron

> So amid all that, in those untold decades, it's perfectly plausible
> that he's had more than one close encounter with a Nazgul.

How did the Last Alliance take care of the Nazgul? I still doubt a single
Numenorean would have been able to avoid capture. And note that during the
War of the Last Alliance, the Nazgul had no reason to try to capture any
human nobles.

About Aragorn in Moria, note that even at the Battle of Nanduhiron, the
Balrog did not come out and save his own army. Maybe he simply tolerates
(and psychically attracts) orcs, but doesn't lead them or plot with them.
And maybe, when someone sneaks into Mordor and word gets to him, he just
sends evil feelings at them until they go away.

Only another Maiar can get him off his butt...

--
  Phlip
  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:1153927897.506123.208080@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> "stevehim@yahoo.com" <stevehim@yahoo.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> >>
>
> Steuard was asking about the nature of Aragorn's painful memories;
> the cause of Aragorn's reaction in Bree when telling the Hobbits
> about the Black Riders (as they are still called at that point) that
> "They are terrible!"
>
>       The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that
>     his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched
>     the arms of his chair. The room was very quiet and still,
>     and the light seemed to have grown dim. For a while he sat
>     with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory or
>     listening to sounds in the Night far away.
>       'There!' he cried after a moment, drawing his hand across
>     his brow. 'Perhaps I know more about these pursuers than
>     you do. You fear them, but you do not fear them enough,
>     yet. [...].
>   [LotR I,10 'Strider']

> I said:
> >> Need he have been captured and tormented by the Nazgûl? It would
> >> suffice for me if he had had some close escapes, feeling the
> >> terror and possibly the Black Breath (have them kill a couple of
> >> companions also, and there's ample grounds for his painful
> >> memory, IMO).

Though that is certainly a possibility, I was under the impression that
Aragorn was somewhat immune to the effects of the Nazgul, suggested by
Tolkien (Letter 210) as being one whom the Nazgul would have 'no great
physical power aginast the fearless; but what they have, and the fear
that they inspire, is enormously increased in [i]darkness[/i].'

Now it is true that Tolkien doesn't mention Aragorn specifically here,
and does state that leaving the inn at night would be the last thing he
would do, but Aragorn seems to show no fear at Weathertop, so likely
the only time he'd feel such fear (younger days aside) would be facing
all Nine together.  In that scenario, I'm not sure how he would escape.

As for the quote, I think both interpretations are possible, but I'm
gonna have to stick to the second part where Tolkien suggests he is
'listening to sounds in the Night far away,' since it seems somewhat
out of character, to me, for Aragorn to be suddenly overwhelmed with
fear when the Nazgul weren't even present.


> I do agree that the idea that Aragorn might have seen companions
> captured and tormented by Nazgûl (or at least seen them come back as
> wrecks of the torture) is, perhaps, less likely than a purely
> personal encounter, I don't think the probability to be low enough to
> dismiss the idea.

I agrre I should not dismiss that idea, and remembering friends lost to
the Nazgul could account for his 'trance' at Bree.


<snip>

>
> > Maybe another skill of Aragorn's, which allowed him to locate/
> > identify the Nazgul?
>
> I would be surprised if that was the case. Not only are there no
> further indications of such a skill, even when it would have been
> most useful (e.g. at Weathertop or during the flight to the Ford of
> Bruinen when they didn't know where all the Ringwraiths were), but it
> would also seem to me quite unbalancing for the overall plot if
> Aragorn should be possessed of additional supernatural skills (i.e.
> beyond his ability to heal and his occasional foresight).


Though he does state, at Weathertop, that he cannot 'feel' their
presence anywhere, which is an 'ability' the Hobbits don't seem to
posess at that same time.  It could be the general terror the Nazgul
project, as seen elsewhere in the story, but it seems much more
specific in that instance, and would also beg the quetion of why the
Hobbits didn't feel it at the same time (though this coulkd obviously
be reconciled with them having less ability to deal with the fear
and/or concern for Frodo).


<snip>

peace,

steve

> Troels Forchhammer
> Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
>
>     The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
>     same level of thinking with which we created them.
>  - Albert Einstein