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Mike Haas wrote:

> NRA MEMBER INFORMATION                                       10/12/99
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         SHADES OF AUSTRALIA:  BBC REPORTS CRIME UP IN UK
>         ------------------------------------------------
>
>                "By Jove!  What bloody 'appened?"
>
>         "Sit down, mate.  We'll tell you all about it..."
>
>   NRAWinningTeam.com extends it's comprehensive report on Australia
>   with highlights of an Oct. 10th BBC News article showing that the
>   UK is going the SAME WAY AS AUSTRALIA -- CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A
>   FIELD DAY!
>
>                        Just one example...
>
>      "...The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in
>      five years when official figures are published this week.."

Now hang on a second. If you had actually bothered to examine this data a
little more closely. The 'huge' rise in crime is actually an illusion
caused by a change in the way that the figures a calculated.

http://news2.thls.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid%5F472000/472242.stm

It is not possible to directly compare these figures with past rates.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

 I AM a member of the NRA (for the moment).. BUT, all that NRA B.S. about
Australia's crime rates and GUNS is just a song and dance.

 Look at the total number of DEATHS by firearms. It's a statistically NULL
figure. They didn't have a Gun Crime or Gun Death problem BEFORE they banned
guns - they STILL Do NOT have a Gun Crime or Gun Death problem.

 Australia and the United Kingdom are two places where firearm death
"Percentages" are totally meaningless. You MUST look at the Raw Data to get
a realistic picture of the changes that have taken place..

 I am ASHAMED of the NRA for publishing such an obvious SHAM!
--

   (Mike Eglestone)
----------------------

On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the
Parliament Building is an American flag.

 Take GREAT care when placing uncompromising standards for living
on others. The time will come when someone else's standards WILL
be applied to you. If you find yourself with the short straw, and
you set the precedents being applied, you have "No Recourse" but to
shut up and live with the consequences.

On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, M. W. Eglestone wrote:

>On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the
>Parliament Building is an American flag.

No it's not, it's the Canadian Red Ensign, with the Union jack in the
canton.

andrew

--------------------------------------
Andrew.Yong@Christ-Church.Oxford.AC.UK          or @chch.ox.ac.uk

Andrew Yong wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, M. W. Eglestone wrote:

>>On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the
>>Parliament Building is an American flag.

>No it's not, it's the Canadian Red Ensign, with the Union jack in the
>canton.


>>>>

Can't take a joke, eh?

------------------------------------------

But Mr. Eglestone completely ignores the BBC News article
(at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_470000/470425.stm -
which the NRAWinningTeam.com page links directly to )
that points out...

"...the figures produced by the old method, which Mr Straw
will publish simultaneously, will also show a rise in crime..."

..the NRAWinningTeam.com page points this fact out.  (Mr.
Egelstone must have missed that).

Point is, both Australia and the UK have shown a demonstrable
increase in crime, violent and otherwise, after passing
wildly successful, far-reaching gun confiscation programs.  The
web page make that more than clear, and that is why that web page
( http://NRAWinningTeam.com/auresult.html )
is receiving hundreds of visitors daily from all over the world.*

As far as what Mr. Egelstone is ashamed of; his comments
belie a strongly negative attitude with respect to NRA.  Sadly,
some seem to feel a compunction to bash what they belong to.
But to keep the record straight, NRAWinningTeam.com was
created by and for NRA MEMBERS.  It it not owned nor maintained by
NRA, rather by a single Benefactor Member who strongly believes
in his association.

Cheers,

Mike Haas

* - for the latest NRAWInningTeam.com news, check out...

  http://NRAWinningTeam.com/confiscation/calockyer.html




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Mike Haas wrote:

> Point is, both Australia and the UK have shown a demonstrable
> increase in crime, violent and otherwise, after passing
> wildly successful, far-reaching gun confiscation programs.  The
> web page make that more than clear, and that is why that web page
> ( http://NRAWinningTeam.com/auresult.html )
> is receiving hundreds of visitors daily from all over the world.*
<===============================================>

 MWE: I read all the articles that were required to come to the conclusions
that I clearly stated. Neither Australia OR the United Kingdom had enough
"GUN CRIMES" before they passed their confiscation laws to make much
difference. They did NOT have a statistically evident or demonstrable
significant history of gun misuse by their criminal elements.

 In order to present "PROOF" that removing the guns from the hands of
"Those" citizens was a major factor in the rise in violent crime, you have
to demonstrate, on a case by case basis, that there would have been a
different outcome "IF" the gun laws had not been in place. In the case of
the UK and Australia, where guns were hardly ever used for self defense by
the citizens, that would be real damn difficult. The guns that were
confiscated, for the most part, were "Recreational" weapons. Neither the
U.K. or Australia had a high proliferation of handguns; the traditional self
defense weapon of choice in the U.S.

 I am NOT knocking you for presenting the information. I AM openly
criticizing you for misrepresenting the significance of the data. You simple
do NOT have the necessary proof to reach the conclusions you presented for
our consideration. At best you have speculation - And, that's also on shaky
ground.

 If it won't stand up to hard cross examination in a court of law, it's not
worth mentioning.
-----

   (Mike Eglestone)
----------------------
Rhode Island Law: Any marriage where either of the parties is an idiot or a
lunatic is null and void.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It
is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves."

-William Pitt (The Younger), Speech - House of Commons - 18 Nov. 1783

 THIS, is an example, Mike, of the problem I am having with the "Winning
Team" and their "News Articles" that are deceptive and misleading..

 You Folks Presented The Following:
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

NRAWinningTeam.com extends it's comprehensive report on Australia
with highlights of an Oct. 10th BBC News article showing that the
UK is going the SAME WAY AS AUSTRALIA.

  CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A FIELD DAY!

        Just one example...

 "...The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in
 five years when official figures are published this week.."
-------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------

 MWE: The article was quite different from what you portrayed it to be.
It certainly had nothing to do with Gun Laws, and nearly nothing to do
with a REAL rise in the crime rates in the U.K.

 Here are the significant portions of the article:
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

UK Crime figures 'to rise'

Crime costs the UK an estimated �50bn a year

The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in five years when
official figures are published this week.

 Recorded crime is expected to have risen by 20%, with the biggest rises
being in burglary and vehicle theft.

There is also expected to be a steep rise in juvenile crime.

 The rise is mainly due to a "New Method Of COUNTING Crimes"
reported by the 43 police forces in England and Wales.

Last year 4.5m offences were recorded by the police. Home Secretary Jack
Straw said taking account of the "New Recording Methods," that is likely to
rise by 0.9m to 5.4m this year.
----------------------------------
----------------------------------

 MWE: You were VERY DISHONEST with the opener for that article because the
article you presented didn't support your assertion. You were fully aware of
that when you wrote the headers. Crime may be up slightly in the U.K. but is
sure can't be attributed to the "Gun Laws" which are the primary thing the
"Winning Team" should be concerned with. A new method of COUNTING and
RECORDING criminal activity is not, "CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A FIELD DAY"...

 I expect HCI to tell lies and present deceptions. I'll be damned if I'll
accept the SAME THING from people who are supposed to be representing the
interests of NRA members and Gun Owners.

 If you want to play those types of games, take my name OFF the list of
folks you purport to represent. My standards for the TRUTH are much higher
than that!!
--

Mike Eglestone
Senior Master Sergeant (E-8)
United States Air Force, (Retired)
----------------------

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It
is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves."

-William Pitt (The Younger), Speech - House of Commons - 18 Nov. 1783

 THIS, is an example, Mike, of the problem I am having with the "Winning
Team" and their "News Articles" that are deceptive and misleading..

 You Folks Presented The Following:
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

NRAWinningTeam.com extends it's comprehensive report on Australia
with highlights of an Oct. 10th BBC News article showing that the
UK is going the SAME WAY AS AUSTRALIA.

  CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A FIELD DAY!

        Just one example...

 "...The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in
 five years when official figures are published this week.."
-------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------

 MWE: The article was quite different from what you portrayed it to be.
It certainly had nothing to do with Gun Laws, and nearly nothing to do
with a REAL rise in the crime rates in the U.K.

 Here are the significant portions of the article:
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

UK Crime figures 'to rise'

Crime costs the UK an estimated �50bn a year

The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in five years when
official figures are published this week.

 Recorded crime is expected to have risen by 20%, with the biggest rises
being in burglary and vehicle theft.

There is also expected to be a steep rise in juvenile crime.

 The rise is mainly due to a "New Method Of COUNTING Crimes"
reported by the 43 police forces in England and Wales.

Last year 4.5m offences were recorded by the police. Home Secretary Jack
Straw said taking account of the "New Recording Methods," that is likely to
rise by 0.9m to 5.4m this year.
----------------------------------
----------------------------------

 MWE: You were VERY DISHONEST with the opener for that article because the
article you presented didn't support your assertion. You were fully aware of
that when you wrote the headers. Crime may be up slightly in the U.K. but is
sure can't be attributed to the "Gun Laws" which are the primary thing the
"Winning Team" should be concerned with. A new method of COUNTING and
RECORDING criminal activity is not, "CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A FIELD DAY"...

 I expect HCI to tell lies and present deceptions. I'll be damned if I'll
accept the SAME THING from people who are supposed to be representing the
interests of NRA members and Gun Owners.

 If you want to play those types of games, take my name OFF the list of
folks you purport to represent. My standards for the TRUTH are much higher
than that!!
--

Mike Eglestone
Senior Master Sergeant (E-8)
United States Air Force, (Retired)
----------------------

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It
is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves."

-William Pitt (The Younger), Speech - House of Commons - 18 Nov. 1783

In article <38061639.4AD9539B@bellsouth.net>, "M. W. Eglestone"
<smsmike@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>  THIS, is an example, Mike, of the problem I am having with the
> "Winning
> Team" and their "News Articles" that are deceptive and misleading..
>  You Folks Presented The Following:
> -----------------------------------
> -----------------------------------
> NRAWinningTeam.com extends it's comprehensive report on Australia
> with highlights of an Oct. 10th BBC News article showing that the
> UK is going the SAME WAY AS AUSTRALIA.
>   CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A FIELD DAY!
>         Just one example...
>  "...The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in
>  five years when official figures are published this week.."
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>  MWE: The article was quite different from what you portrayed it
> to be.

I quote the article exactly, and draw the inference that the British
Government won't draw for you.  This is a search for TRUTH, remember?
That means taking the stock info that is handed us by the BBC and
making sense out of it, not accepting what it says wihout delving
deeper.

You aren't nieve enough to believe that the BBC is going to
TELL US if crime is going up becauise all guns have been banned,
are you?  We know that crime MUST go up, there's no question from
the research of John Lott, Gary Kleck and a host of others.

So our task is to point at the falsehoods of the gun banners and poke
holes in their falshoods with the tools these researchers have given
us.  You can do that, can't you?  Or do you believe the British
Government over Lott, Kleck and the others?

> It certainly had nothing to do with Gun Laws,

Now how do you know that?!!?  And to use the word "certainly"?
Are you really an NRA member AND pro-self-defense?
I just can't square your blind acceptance of that BBC News article.
After all, I never set out to prove a case in a court of law, but
from the HUGE responses I'm getting, I guarantee you I've created
serious doubt about the voracity of that BBC report.
Except for you, that is.

You expect the BBC to admit that the British Gun Ban is responsible?
Puh-lease!

>and nearly nothing
> to do
> with a REAL rise in the crime rates in the U.K.

It certainly did.  The article I linked to states (and I include the
quote on the web page) that the rise is "...mainly due to a new method
of counting crimes ... However... the figures produced by the old
method... will also show a rise in crime..."

Get that last part?  That's what they don't want to stress, but must be
stressed.

"
>  Here are the significant portions of the article:
> --------------------------------------------------

Sorry.  You are thinking like a government beauraucrat.
You've got to realize these are real victims that are being
laid down in the wake of gun control, and their goveernment
will hide and obfuscate just as it did to pass the ban.

Stopping your thinking processes with the words on their page
is simply nieve.  Don't stop there. Mr. Egelstone.

> ----------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
>  MWE: You were VERY DISHONEST with the opener for that article
> because the
> article you presented didn't support your assertion.

Indeed it does.  Under both old and new methods of accounting, crime is
up in the UK, by the BBC's own admission.  THE QUESTION IS THE
INTEGRITY OF THE BBC REPORTING, not the inferences I am drawing.
All I am doing is making clear the inconsistencies between their
actions (banning virtually all guns) and the results (crime going
up, no doubt about it).  You would rather impugn my integrity
rather than have the BBC explain that?

>You were
> fully aware of
> that when you wrote the headers. Crime may be up slightly in the
> U.K.

But how do you know it's up "slightly"?  Didn't you yourself say
that the real change couldn't be determined?  (I disagree, BTW, and
think that the old method showed significant increases also.  NOTE:
that the BBC article doesn;t specify that value, does it?  Now
why aren';t you curious why not?

>but is
> sure can't be attributed to the "Gun Laws"

Why not?  Are you educated in these matters?  What do you expect to
happen when you remove the citizens access to defensive tools?

Surely criminals wouldn't take advantage of the situation, now, would
they?  Never happen, right Mike?

Or do you believe that simply because the BBC didn't tell you
that gun laws had anything to do with it. they don't?

Methinks you doth protest too loudly.  Especially for a gun-owner who
is worried about losing his rights, or for someone who is in the least
bit concerned for his former gun-owning British brethern.

Now you sound like an NRA hater in drag.

>which are the primary
> thing the
> "Winning Team" should be concerned with. A new method of COUNTING
> and
> RECORDING criminal activity is not, "CRIMINALS ARE HAVING A FIELD
> DAY"...

Aren't you listening?

UNDER BOTH OLD AND NEW COUNTING METHODS, CRIME INCREASED.
THEY DIDN'T QUANTIFY THE INCREASE UNDER THE OLDER METHOD.
WHY NOT?  WOULDN'T THAT HAVE PROVIDED A CLEAR PICTURE OF WHAT
CRIME HAS DONE?

No, there's a reason the didn't include those numbers.  Geez,
man, this is one of the biggest NEWS organizations in the world!
Demand they act like it!

That one line, about crime going up under the old method too, tells the
whole story.  No, it's not a complete story, but only because they
didn't give  that complete set of statistics.  Why not?  You have a
nose, don't you?  It smells things, doesn;t it?  Why do I have to keep
leading you around by it?

>  I expect HCI to tell lies and present deceptions. I'll be damned
> if I'll
> accept the SAME THING from people who are supposed to be
> representing the
> interests of NRA members and Gun Owners.
>  If you want to play those types of games, take my name OFF the
> list of
> folks you purport to represent.

Mr. Egelstone, you can remove your name from any list you choose.  I
doubt you are helping any cause I'm associated with anyway.

> My standards for the TRUTH are
> much higher
> than that!!

I'm happy for you.  I guess the thousands that are passing around
my information to Legislators at all levels of government, the many
.gov and .edu sites that are hitting it, the tremendous discussion
taking place on MANY forums... we'll all just slosh along way down
here without you.

Cheerio!

Mike Haas

PS:  Odd that, in your sig, you express distrust of those that
want to infringe on human freedom, but trust the British media and
government when it comes to crime statistics following a
country-wide gun ban.

> --
> Mike Eglestone
> Senior Master Sergeant (E-8)
> United States Air Force, (Retired)
> ----------------------
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It
> is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves."
> -William Pitt (The Younger), Speech - House of Commons - 18 Nov.
> 1783



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