🚀 go-pugleaf

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 4:54:28 PM UTC-4, aniskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hope you all are doing well and staying safe. Sharing a ghazal (some simple thoughts) to keep the mehfil going! Please forgive if transliteration is not consistent with ALUP standards as I am still learning:-) 
> 
> Jab hasaratooN ne dil ko nishaana bana liya 
> khwaboN ke paas hum ne thikaana bana liya 
> 
> Meri khata hai kya jo hua mehv-e-ishq yuN 
> Saare nagar ko us ne diwaaana bana liya 
> 
> Furqat meiN hum kisi ki bhala kyoN gharib hoN 
> YaadoN ko zindagi ka khazaana bana liya 
> 
> zaahir na ho kisi pe muhabbat ki daastaaN 
> andaaz berukhi ka puraana bana liya 
> 
> Kahna thi dil ki baat ishaaroN meiN hi Anis 
> GhazloN ka aaj hum ne bahaana bana liya 
> 
> ~Anis Khan
>

Anis sb, aadaab!

It’s a nice Ghazal. Please accept my humble appreciation.

As you said, you will learn the guidelines (I wouldn’t call them “rules”) of transliteration at ALUP gradually, but here are a couple edits that will help you in the process.

Jab -> jab. We don’t capitalize the first letter of each line, capitalization is used for specific sounds. Other capital letters at the start of each line should be changed to lower case except “G” in “GhazloN,” which should remain capitalized to produce the sound of Urdu letter “Ghain.”

hasaratooN -> hasratoN

nishaana -> nishaanaa. “nishaana” or “nishaanah” will be fine usually, but here “chhoTii he” is pronounced as “alif” so we will use “aa” at the end of the word. This applies to all of the qavaafii in your Ghazal.

bana liya -> banaa liyaa

hum -> ham. Letter “u” is used for the Urdu harakat “pesh.”

thikaana -> Thikaanaa. “th” with a lower case t is used for the Urdu “te with haaye maKhluut” such as in “thakan.”

khata, khazaana, berukhi -> Khataa, Khazaanaa, beruKhii
kya, hua -> kyaa, huaa
yuN -> yuuN
gharib -> Ghariib
kisi, thi, hi -> kisii, thii, hii

Now a couple of technical notes for your consideration.

In sher #2, “yuuN” sounds like a filler. Please use something else. One option is “maiN.”
In sher #4, “andaaz banaa liyaa” sounds unfamiliar. The qaafiya “puraanaa” doesn’t fit very well.
In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.”

Sincerely,
Irfan :Abid:

On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:

> In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Irfan :Abid:

Irfan SaaHib, aadaab.

Kahnaa thii dil kii baat ishaaroN meN hii Anis
GhazloN kaa aaj huam ne bahaanah bana liya

This construction is part of Urdu grammar. One can write it in three ways.

1. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thii.

"mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa." C.M.Na'im (az Barabanki)

"Mominah, tujh se ek baat karnaa thii beTaa, agar tum buraa nah maano" (vuh naazniin- Farah Bukhari)

2. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnii thii.

(baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin)

3. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thaa.

"haaN Hindu agar yih koshish kareN kih Bhaakaa meN jitne Farsi asmaa' mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa."

"un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa, unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa."

yih donoN jumule "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabaa'ii" se maaxuuz haiN. (Nazm Tabatabaa'ii)

Naseer

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:54:28 PM UTC-5, aniskh...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hope you all are doing well and staying safe.

Anis sahib, aadaab

Doing well, relatively speaking. :)

 Sharing a ghazal (some simple thoughts) to keep the mehfil going!

We appreciate it. As you can already tell, our forum can definitely use some fresh energy these days.

Please forgive if transliteration is not consistent with ALUP standards as I am still learning:-)

Learn you will! BTW, I am still learning after all those years, a perpetual Alup student. :-)

> Jab hasaratooN ne dil ko nishaana bana liya
> khwaboN ke paas hum ne thikaana bana liya
>
> Meri khata hai kya jo hua mehv-e-ishq yuN
> Saare nagar ko us ne diwaaana bana liya
>
> Furqat meiN hum kisi ki bhala kyoN gharib hoN
> YaadoN ko zindagi ka khazaana bana liya

I like all of the above three asha'ar. daad qubuul kiijiye.

> zaahir na ho kisi pe muhabbat ki daastaaN
> andaaz berukhi ka puraana bana liya

I kind of see what you are trying to say in #4, but as Irfan sahib already mentioned, I too have issues with the second misraa, especially the qaafia 'puraana'. You may want to rethink this one.

> Kahna thi dil ki baat ishaaroN meiN hi Anis
> GhazloN ka aaj hum ne bahaana bana liya

Good idea. Keep it up.

> ~Anis Khan

I was also going to say something regarding "baat kehna thi", Irfan and Naseer sahibaan have already brought this up. I will add to it in my follow up post.

_______Zoya

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-5, Irfan Abid wrote:

> > Kahna thi dil ki baat ishaaroN meiN hi Anis 
> > GhazloN ka aaj hum ne bahaana bana liya 

> In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Irfan :Abid:

Irfan sahib, aadaab,

You beat me to this one, this construction immediately struck me when I fist read the she'r. :)

Several years ago, I got an extensive lesson on this topic, in Mehfil-e-SuKhan, by one of the senior members. I still remember the specific question he asked me. Would I say:

"mujhe cycle chalaana aati hai"
 yaa 
"mujhe cycle chalaani aati hai"

You can probably guess which option I went with! After a long winded discussion, we agreed to disagree, which basically means I couldn't be fully convinced by the counter arguments. You know me! BTW, the discussion ended up involving the gender of the rider as well as if the bike was 'gents' or ladies' model. :)

I was a bit surprised that you, with your background, went with 'baat kahni'. One of the talking points (read 'charges') back then was that Punjabis say it 'differently' (read "........ly"). :-))

BTW, based on this misraa and my past expert tutorial, I had assumed that Anis sahib must be a native Urdu speaker. I'll be curious to know if my assumption is correct.

Thanks for providing another learning opportunity.

________Zoya

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin)
>
> 3. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thaa.
>
> "haaN Hindu agar yih koshish kareN kih Bhaakaa meN jitne Farsi asmaa' mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa."
>
> "un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa, unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa."
>
> yih donoN jumule "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabaa'ii" se maaxuuz haiN. (Nazm Tabatabaa'ii)
>
> Naseer

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin)

> Naseer

Naseer sahib, you know you can't get away with this one, not on Alup. Where is Prof RK? :)

 Momin???

It is Bahadur Shah 'Zafar '.

_______Zoya

Irfan SaaHib, tasliimaat.

On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:

> In sher #2, “yuuN” sounds like a filler. Please use something else. One option is “maiN.” 

Doesn't "yuuN" imply "is tarH" and therefore not necessarily a filler? 

> In sher #4, “andaaz banaa liyaa” sounds unfamiliar. The qaafiya “puraanaa” doesn’t fit very well. 

I am curious to find out why "puraanaa" does not fit with the other qavaafii. Could you please elaborate.

Naseer

Zoya SaaHibah, aadaab.

On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 05:54:43 UTC, Zoya wrote:
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-5, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> 
> > > Kahna thi dil ki baat ishaaroN meiN hi Anis 
> > > GhazloN ka aaj hum ne bahaana bana liya
> > In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> > 
> > Sincerely, 
> > Irfan :Abid:
> Irfan sahib, aadaab, 
> 
> You beat me to this one, this construction immediately struck me when I fist read the she'r. :) 
> 
> Several years ago, I got an extensive lesson on this topic, in Mehfil-e-SuKhan, by one of the senior members. I still remember the specific question he asked me. Would I say: 
> 
> "mujhe cycle chalaana aati hai" 
> yaa 
> "mujhe cycle chalaani aati hai" 
> 
> You can probably guess which option I went with! After a long winded discussion, we agreed to disagree, which basically means I couldn't be fully convinced by the counter arguments. You know me! BTW, the discussion ended up involving the gender of the rider as well as if the bike was 'gents' or ladies' model. :) 
> 
> I was a bit surprised that you, with your background, went with 'baat kahni'. One of the talking points (read 'charges') back then was that Punjabis say it 'differently' (read "........ly"). :-)) 
> 
> BTW, based on this misraa and my past expert tutorial, I had assumed that Anis sahib must be a native Urdu speaker. I'll be curious to know if my assumption is correct. 
> 
> Thanks for providing another learning opportunity. 
> 
> ________Zoya

As I have indicated in my other post, one can ride your bicyle in three ways.

1. mujhe cycle chalaanii aatii hai. (Delhi style and NOT Punjabi way. It is just a coincidence that this construction maps with Punjabi grammar. Here, "cycle chalaanii" as a whole is a considered as a feminine noun and therefore matches with "aatii hai".

2. mujhe cycle chalaanaa aatii hai (Lucknow style)- Here "cycle" (feminine noun) is linked to "aatii hai")

It seems Urdu masters have not always stuck to these boundries but have overlapped now and again. 

3. mujhe cycle chalaanaa aataa hai. (Also Lucknow style- Here "cycle chalaanaa" as a whole is considered to be a masculine noun which matches with "aataa hai".

Older Urdu did have much similarity with Punjabi grammar, as can be seen in the examples below.

nah Ghunche gul ke khile haiN, nah nargis kii khiliiN kaliyaaN
chaman meN le ke Khamiyaazah kisii ne aNkhaRiyaaN maliyaaN

(Sauda)

(Punjabi would still use maliyaaN whereas in modern Urdu we now have "maliiN")

sau baar dekhiyaaN maiN tirii be-vafaa'iyaaN
tis par bhii nit Ghuruur hai dil meN nibaah kaa

(Dard)

(Like Punjabi, "ne" is missing)

is ziist se bihtar hai ab maut pih dil dhariye
jal bujhiye kahiiN jaa kar yaa Duub kahiiN mariye

This tense formation is still common in Punjabi but in Urdu, it is not common in this sense in the modern language, at least.

C.M.Naim, in his introduction to "Introductory Urdu, 3rd edition published in 1999 by University of Chicago" states the following when talking about differences between Hindi and Urdu. "In another indirect construction, Hindi usually has the infinitive, functioning as a complement, agreeing with the grammatical subject of the verb; Urdu, however, commonly has two more possibilities

Hindi: mujhe kuchh kitaabeN Khariidnii haiN
...........................................................

Urdu: mujhe kuchh kitaabeN Khariidnaa haiN (equivalent to: mujhe cycleN chalaanaa aatii haiN)
: mujhe kuchh kitaabeN Khariidnaa hai (equivalent to: mujhe cycleN chalaanaa aataa hai)
: mujhe kuchh kitaabeN Khariidnii haiN (equivalent to: mujhe cycleN chalaanii aatii haiN)

You may remember Roshan Kamat SaaHib. In a private message, he wrote the following 

(o) laRkE kA `irAda haE.
(o) laRkE kI aOqAt haE.

Here, in the direct case the noun remains unchanged; but in oblique it adopts the 'E' form (laRkA -laRkE)

(I provided two oblique forms so that both the masculine possessive & feminine singular possessive will be covered to prevent any confusion arising from that.)

Contrast with..

(o) laRkI haE.
(o) laRkI kA`irAda haE.
(o) laRkI kI aOqAt haE.

Here, the feminine noun retains its form regardless of whether it is direct or oblique.

Now, for the sake of argument, assume that "bAt karnA" (or "bAtE.n karnA") is a singular masculine noun. If so, we should be able to drop it directly into the masculine declensions without flinching.

(o) bAt karnA haE.
(o) bAt karnE kA`irAda haE.
(o) bAt karnE kI aOqAt haE.

So far so good. This fits. But, let's see what happens if we assume "bAt karnI" is a singular feminine noun and drop it into the feminine declension.

(o) bAt karnI haE.
(o) bAt karnI kA`irAda haE
(o) bAt karnI kI aOqAt haE.

I'm sure you must have found the last two sentences revolting! Even if you have been using the first line on a daily basis.Based on this, it is pretty clear which form fits the grammatical model better. In terms of 'lateral compatibility' with current grammar, the "bAt karnA" as singular masculine wins hands down.

One could ofcourse say that "bAt karnI" (and indeed all infinitive verbs of this nature) should be treated as a special (new?) category of declensions. I couldn't argue against that. But, as the current grammar stands, the feminine form doesn't align to the established declentions.

roshan

............................

Naseer

On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 05:58:09 UTC, Zoya wrote:
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
>
> > (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin)
> > Naseer
>
> Naseer sahib, you know you can't get away with this one, not on Alup. Where is Prof RK? :)
>
> Momin???
>
> It is Bahadur Shah 'Zafar '.
>
> _______Zoya

Indeed it is, Zoya SaaHibah. My mistake.

Naseer

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 7:27:05 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 05:58:09 UTC, Zoya wrote: 
> > On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote: 
> > 
> > > (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin) 
> > > Naseer 
> > 
> > Naseer sahib, you know you can't get away with this one, not on Alup. Where is Prof RK? :) 
> > 
> > Momin??? 
> > 
> > It is Bahadur Shah 'Zafar '. 
> > 
> > _______Zoya
> Indeed it is, Zoya SaaHibah. My mistake. 
> 
> Naseer


Zoya SaaHibah, Afzal Sahib and Naseer Sahib - aadaab and thank you for all your thoughtful comments and pointing out areas for improvement in my ghazal - very much appreciated! I come from an Urdu-speaking family from Lucknow but have never studied Urdu language formally. Also having devoted my career to science and living in the US for a long time, there is some dilution in linguistics (not due to lack of information - thanks to internet - but my inability to give it enough time). I had to say it myself...
                  ishq-o-karobaar-o-mazhab, sab hii mujh meiN haiN nihaaN
                  zindagi apni banTi hai, kitne khaanoN meiN magar

However, having said that I am very passionate about Urdu poetry especially ghazal/nazm genre and try to learn and write. Being a scientist, continuous learning is a life-long journey and I hope to learn from you. I find it interesting that there is always a healthy and sometimes passionate debate between linguistic purity in Urdu as used in ghazals (and practiced and recommended by experienced folks in this group) and liberties that poets may take in expressing themselves and thus evolving the language. It also appears (due to differences of opinions observed) that there may be multiple possibilities and it comes down to preferences (barring any obvious mistakes). 

I am glad that my ghazal generated some excitement and dialogue in the group and learning for myself.

Best regards,
~Anis
     

On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 16:50:41 UTC, aniskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 7:27:05 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote: 
> > On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 05:58:09 UTC, Zoya wrote: 
> > > On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote: 
> > > 
> > > > (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin) 
> > > > Naseer 
> > > 
> > > Naseer sahib, you know you can't get away with this one, not on Alup. Where is Prof RK? :) 
> > > 
> > > Momin??? 
> > > 
> > > It is Bahadur Shah 'Zafar '. 
> > > 
> > > _______Zoya 
> > Indeed it is, Zoya SaaHibah. My mistake. 
> > 
> > Naseer
> Zoya SaaHibah, Afzal Sahib and Naseer Sahib - aadaab and thank you for all your thoughtful comments and pointing out areas for improvement in my ghazal - very much appreciated! I come from an Urdu-speaking family from Lucknow but have never studied Urdu language formally. Also having devoted my career to science and living in the US for a long time, there is some dilution in linguistics (not due to lack of information - thanks to internet - but my inability to give it enough time). I had to say it myself... 
> ishq-o-karobaar-o-mazhab, sab hii mujh meiN haiN nihaaN 
> zindagi apni banTi hai, kitne khaanoN meiN magar 
> 
> However, having said that I am very passionate about Urdu poetry especially ghazal/nazm genre and try to learn and write. Being a scientist, continuous learning is a life-long journey and I hope to learn from you. I find it interesting that there is always a healthy and sometimes passionate debate between linguistic purity in Urdu as used in ghazals (and practiced and recommended by experienced folks in this group) and liberties that poets may take in expressing themselves and thus evolving the language. It also appears (due to differences of opinions observed) that there may be multiple possibilities and it comes down to preferences (barring any obvious mistakes). 
> 
> I am glad that my ghazal generated some excitement and dialogue in the group and learning for myself. 
> 
> Best regards, 
> ~Anis

Anis SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

I would also like to extend my welcome to you in this forum. You will find there are a number of people in this group from science background, namely physics, engineering, mathematics, chemistry and medicine. So, you will not be alone and if at times you wish to talk about the the third law of thermodynamics, you will find people here who are well qualified to participate in your discussions!:-) If you don't believe me, take a look at this thread.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/L2ztEXiJ0lM/m/7Zz1qdTVzhIJ

I think you meant to write "Irfan Sahib" instead of "Afzal Sahib". There is indeed a gentleman named Afzal A. Khan but he has not appeared in the group for a few months. 

Best wishes,
Naseer

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 1:38:10 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 16:50:41 UTC, aniskh...@gmail.com wrote: 
> > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 7:27:05 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote: 
> > > On Monday, 21 March 2022 at 05:58:09 UTC, Zoya wrote: 
> > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > > (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin) 
> > > > > Naseer 
> > > > 
> > > > Naseer sahib, you know you can't get away with this one, not on Alup. Where is Prof RK? :) 
> > > > 
> > > > Momin??? 
> > > > 
> > > > It is Bahadur Shah 'Zafar '. 
> > > > 
> > > > _______Zoya 
> > > Indeed it is, Zoya SaaHibah. My mistake. 
> > > 
> > > Naseer 
> > Zoya SaaHibah, Afzal Sahib and Naseer Sahib - aadaab and thank you for all your thoughtful comments and pointing out areas for improvement in my ghazal - very much appreciated! I come from an Urdu-speaking family from Lucknow but have never studied Urdu language formally. Also having devoted my career to science and living in the US for a long time, there is some dilution in linguistics (not due to lack of information - thanks to internet - but my inability to give it enough time). I had to say it myself... 
> > ishq-o-karobaar-o-mazhab, sab hii mujh meiN haiN nihaaN 
> > zindagi apni banTi hai, kitne khaanoN meiN magar 
> > 
> > However, having said that I am very passionate about Urdu poetry especially ghazal/nazm genre and try to learn and write. Being a scientist, continuous learning is a life-long journey and I hope to learn from you. I find it interesting that there is always a healthy and sometimes passionate debate between linguistic purity in Urdu as used in ghazals (and practiced and recommended by experienced folks in this group) and liberties that poets may take in expressing themselves and thus evolving the language. It also appears (due to differences of opinions observed) that there may be multiple possibilities and it comes down to preferences (barring any obvious mistakes). 
> > 
> > I am glad that my ghazal generated some excitement and dialogue in the group and learning for myself. 
> > 
> > Best regards, 
> > ~Anis
> Anis SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai. 
> 
> I would also like to extend my welcome to you in this forum. You will find there are a number of people in this group from science background, namely physics, engineering, mathematics, chemistry and medicine. So, you will not be alone and if at times you wish to talk about the the third law of thermodynamics, you will find people here who are well qualified to participate in your discussions!:-) If you don't believe me, take a look at this thread. 
> 
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/L2ztEXiJ0lM/m/7Zz1qdTVzhIJ 
> 
Thank you Naseer SaaHib for the warm welcome and the interesting link. Finding scientific principles in ash'aar seems akin to finding maths of turbulence in Van Gogh's, "The Starry Night" - indeed a beautiful thing. I intend to become an ALUP archeologist to discover such gems in the archives. Also, glad my post increased the entropy here a tiny bit for all this beautiful responses from everyone!!! 

> I think you meant to write "Irfan Sahib" instead of "Afzal Sahib". There is indeed a gentleman named Afzal A. Khan but he has not appeared in the group for a few months. 
My sincere apologies to Irfan Sahib - indeed I meant to write his name but mistyped - thanks for pointing it out.

> 
> Best wishes, 
> Naseer

Thanks,
~Anis

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 2:00:52 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> 
> > In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> > 
> > Sincerely, 
> > Irfan :Abid:
> Irfan SaaHib, aadaab. 
> 
> Kahnaa thii dil kii baat ishaaroN meN hii Anis 
> GhazloN kaa aaj huam ne bahaanah bana liya 
> 
> This construction is part of Urdu grammar. One can write it in three ways. 
> 
> 1. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thii. 
> 
> "mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa." C.M.Na'im (az Barabanki) 
> 
> "Mominah, tujh se ek baat karnaa thii beTaa, agar tum buraa nah maano" (vuh naazniin- Farah Bukhari) 
> 
> 2. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnii thii. 
> 
> (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin) 
> 
> 3. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thaa. 
> 
> "haaN Hindu agar yih koshish kareN kih Bhaakaa meN jitne Farsi asmaa' mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa." 
> 
> "un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa, unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa." 
> 
> yih donoN jumule "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabaa'ii" se maaxuuz haiN. (Nazm Tabatabaa'ii) 
> 
> Naseer
>

Naseer sb, aadaab!

Thanks for your note! I didn't mean to say that "baat kahnaa thii" is wrong. I meant to say it's preferred, and my comment was based on actual usage rather than official rules of grammar. I should have made it clear. "kahnaa thii" may be prevalent, but not prominently. I can't say much about Urdu prose as I don't read much of it these days, but in poetry you will almost always find "kahnii thii" used by reputed poets. Please do a search and let me know if you find different results as my observation may be misplaced.

Sincerely,
Irfan :Abid:

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 1:54:43 AM UTC-4, Zoya wrote:
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-5, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> 
> > > Kahna thi dil ki baat ishaaroN meiN hi Anis 
> > > GhazloN ka aaj hum ne bahaana bana liya
> > In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> > 
> > Sincerely, 
> > Irfan :Abid:
> Irfan sahib, aadaab, 
> 
> You beat me to this one, this construction immediately struck me when I fist read the she'r. :) 
> 
> Several years ago, I got an extensive lesson on this topic, in Mehfil-e-SuKhan, by one of the senior members. I still remember the specific question he asked me. Would I say: 
> 
> "mujhe cycle chalaana aati hai" 
> yaa 
> "mujhe cycle chalaani aati hai" 
> 
> You can probably guess which option I went with! After a long winded discussion, we agreed to disagree, which basically means I couldn't be fully convinced by the counter arguments. You know me! BTW, the discussion ended up involving the gender of the rider as well as if the bike was 'gents' or ladies' model. :) 
> 
> I was a bit surprised that you, with your background, went with 'baat kahni'. One of the talking points (read 'charges') back then was that Punjabis say it 'differently' (read "........ly"). :-)) 
> 
> BTW, based on this misraa and my past expert tutorial, I had assumed that Anis sahib must be a native Urdu speaker. I'll be curious to know if my assumption is correct. 
> 
> Thanks for providing another learning opportunity. 
> 
> ________Zoya
>

Zoya sahiba, aadaab!

Honestly, I can't guess which option you went with. Which one was it and why?

I am not sure what surprised you by my choice for "baat kahnii thii" over "baat kahnaa thii," but as I said in my reply to Nasser sb, my comment was based on my experience with how this phrase is used by reputed poets. As far as my background goes, even in everyday conversation, we either say "cycle chalaanii aatii hai" or "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai." We hardly say "cycle chalaanaa aatii hai."

Sincerely,
Irfan :Abid:

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:22:55 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> Irfan SaaHib, tasliimaat.

Naseer sb, aadaab!

> On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> > In sher #2, “yuuN” sounds like a filler. Please use something else. One option is “maiN.”
> Doesn't "yuuN" imply "is tarH" and therefore not necessarily a filler?

No, sir! "yuuN" is certainly a filler here. The poet is simply saying 'The whole town is mad about her, so what's wrong if I am, too?' There is no need for "yuuN" here and the meaning is conveyed without it. You may be thinking about "isii tarah," which is different from "is tarah" and IMHO "yuuN" doesn't convey the meaning of "isii tarah." A proper use of "yuuN" will be something like this.

yuuN hasratoN ke daaGh muhabbat meN dho liye
Khud dil se dil kii baat kahii aur ro liye (Rajinder Krishan)

> > In sher #4, “andaaz banaa liyaa” sounds unfamiliar. The qaafiya “puraanaa” doesn’t fit very well.
> I am curious to find out why "puraanaa" does not fit with the other qavaafii. Could you please elaborate. 
> 

Sure. I wasn't comparing this qaafiya with other qavaafii. I was actually referring to the radiif "banaa liyaa." Something that is "puraanaa" by default already exists, and you don't "make" something that already exists.

> Naseer

Sincerely,
Irfan :Abid:

Anis sahib,

Welcome to ALUP.   I enjoyed reading what you shared with us, thank you so much for sharing your Ghazal.  I particularly enjoyed your sh'er number 2 in the Ghazal and agree with Irfan sahib that 'yuuN' could probably be replaced with a better word that helps the flow in both the lines. 

Also, something sounded odd to me with regards to sher number 4 and it was probably how the word "puraanaa" was used as well in this case.  Maybe revisit the whole misra? 

Once again, welcome to ALUP and thanks for sharing this lovely Ghazal! 

Regards

Amit Malhotra

On Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 02:19:41 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 2:00:52 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote: 
> > On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> > 
> > > In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> > > 
> > > Sincerely, 
> > > Irfan :Abid: 
> > Irfan SaaHib, aadaab. 
> > 
> > Kahnaa thii dil kii baat ishaaroN meN hii Anis 
> > GhazloN kaa aaj huam ne bahaanah bana liya 
> > 
> > This construction is part of Urdu grammar. One can write it in three ways. 
> > 
> > 1. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thii. 
> > 
> > "mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa." C.M.Na'im (az Barabanki) 
> > 
> > "Mominah, tujh se ek baat karnaa thii beTaa, agar tum buraa nah maano" (vuh naazniin- Farah Bukhari) 
> > 
> > 2. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnii thii. 
> > 
> > (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin) 
> > 
> > 3. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thaa. 
> > 
> > "haaN Hindu agar yih koshish kareN kih Bhaakaa meN jitne Farsi asmaa' mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa." 
> > 
> > "un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa, unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa." 
> > 
> > yih donoN jumule "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabaa'ii" se maaxuuz haiN. (Nazm Tabatabaa'ii) 
> > 
> > Naseer 
> >
> Naseer sb, aadaab! 
> 
> Thanks for your note! I didn't mean to say that "baat kahnaa thii" is wrong. I meant to say it's preferred, and my comment was based on actual usage rather than official rules of grammar. I should have made it clear. "kahnaa thii" may be prevalent, but not prominently. I can't say much about Urdu prose as I don't read much of it these days, but in poetry you will almost always find "kahnii thii" used by reputed poets. Please do a search and let me know if you find different results as my observation may be misplaced. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Irfan :Abid:
Thank you for your clarification, Irfan SaaHib.

I was under the impression (as per Maulavii Abdul Haq's Qavaa'id-i-Urdu) that "baat kahnii thii" is the Delhi School style whereas "baat kahnaa thii" is Lucknow style. If "reputable poets" are employing "kahnii thii", can one deduce that the Lucknow school is not producing any reputable poets or perhaps they are also adhering to the Delhi school?

In a language forum, an Urdu speaker from Lucknow said the following, "So karnaa, lenaa, denaa, xariidnaa, bechnaa, khaanaa etc., all remain masculine even if the object noun is feminine, e.g. aap ko yeh kitaab (fem.) bechnaa hogii and not bechnii hogii; yeh sabzii (fem.) khaanaa hogii etc." This does provide backing to Maulavii Abdul Haq's statement. (There is also of course "baat kahnaa thaa", as shown by examples from Nazm Tabatabaa'ii.

Naseer 

Irfan SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

On Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 02:52:18 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:22:55 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote: 
> > Irfan SaaHib, tasliimaat. 
> 
> Naseer sb, aadaab!
> > On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> > > In sher #2, “yuuN” sounds like a filler. Please use something else. One option is “maiN.” 
> > Doesn't "yuuN" imply "is tarH" and therefore not necessarily a filler?
> No, sir! "yuuN" is certainly a filler here. The poet is simply saying 'The whole town is mad about her, so what's wrong if I am, too?' There is no need for "yuuN" here and the meaning is conveyed without it. You may be thinking about "isii tarah," which is different from "is tarah" and IMHO "yuuN" doesn't convey the meaning of "isii tarah."

No, I was thinking that Anis SaaHib's use of "yuuN" implied "is tarH" and not "isii tarH".

> A proper use of "yuuN" will be something like this. 
> 
> yuuN hasratoN ke daaGh muhabbat meN dho liye 
> Khud dil se dil kii baat kahii aur ro liye (Rajinder Krishan)
> > > In sher #4, “andaaz banaa liyaa” sounds unfamiliar. The qaafiya “puraanaa” doesn’t fit very well. 
> > I am curious to find out why "puraanaa" does not fit with the other qavaafii. Could you please elaborate. 
> >
> Sure. I wasn't comparing this qaafiya with other qavaafii. I was actually referring to the radiif "banaa liyaa." Something that is "puraanaa" by default already exists, and you don't "make" something that already exists. 

Ok, I understand. Thank you for your explanation.

Naseer

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:26:19 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> As I have indicated in my other post, one can ride your bicyle in three ways. 
> 
> 1. mujhe cycle chalaanii aatii hai. (Delhi style and NOT Punjabi way. It is just a coincidence that this construction maps with Punjabi grammar. Here, "cycle chalaanii" as a whole is a considered as a feminine noun and therefore matches with "aatii hai". 
> 
> 2. mujhe cycle chalaanaa aatii hai (Lucknow style)- Here "cycle" (feminine noun) is linked to "aatii hai") 

Naseer sahib,

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. The M-e-S discussion I referred to, basically involved options #1 and #2. I went with #1, the Delhi/Punjabi/Hindi way, but the other friend insisted that #2 was the 'pure' option. He was originally from UP if I remember correctly. As I said earlier, I could not be fully convinced, and stuck to 'my way', now who knows that better than you that I am known to do so occasionally! :-)
..........................

> One could ofcourse say that "bAt karnI" (and indeed all infinitive verbs of this nature) should be treated as a special (new?) category of declensions. I couldn't argue against that. But, as the current grammar stands, the feminine form doesn't align to the established declentions. 

> roshan 
............................ 

Of course I remember and miss Roshan sahib. Those were the days!

> Naseer

_________Zoya

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:34:49 PM UTC-5, Irfan Abid wrote:

> > "mujhe cycle chalaani aati hai" 

> Zoya sahiba, aadaab! 

aadaab, Irfan sahib,
 
> Honestly, I can't guess which option you went with. Which one was it and why? 

I went with the above written option, because that was the only one I had always heard/used. To be perfectly honest, 'chalaana aati hai' sounded a bit foreign to me. However, since that discussion, I have started noticing this kind of sentence structure, but never by Punjabis.

> I am not sure what surprised you by my choice for "baat kahnii thii" over "baat kahnaa thii," but as I said in my reply to Nasser sb, my comment was based on my experience with how this phrase is used by reputed poets.

I was surprised because I had been told, and believed, this is how ahl-e-zubaan purists say it. And in my book, you are the purist of the highest order. :)

 As far as my background goes, even in everyday conversation, we either say "cycle chalaanii aatii hai" or "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai." We hardly say "cycle chalaanaa aatii hai." 

Even though I was never fully convinced that 'my' way was wrong, knowing that you also say it in the same manner makes me feel a lot better. :-)

> Sincerely, 
> Irfan :Abid:

Interestingly, the original M-e-S discussion was initiated by the construction of a misraa in one of my own ghazals, I can't exactly remember which one, will try to recall it.

Thanks, for everything.

_________Zoya

On Wednesday, 23 March 2022 at 11:23:23 UTC, Zoya wrote:

> As far as my background goes, even in everyday conversation, we either say "cycle chalaanii aatii hai" or "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai." We hardly say "cycle chalaanaa aatii hai."
> _________Zoya

or "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai."

This is probably because in Punjabi "cycle" is masculine as far as I know.

Naseer

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 9:01:45 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 March 2022 at 11:23:23 UTC, Zoya wrote:
>
> > As far as my background goes, even in everyday conversation, we either say "cycle chalaanii aatii hai" or "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai." We hardly say "cycle chalaanaa aatii hai."
> > _________Zoya
> or "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai."
> This is probably because in Punjabi "cycle" is masculine as far as I know.
>
> Naseer

In Lucknow also "cycle chalaanaa aataa hai" was quite common.

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 1:17:55 PM UTC-4, ami...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anis sahib, 
> 
> Welcome to ALUP. I enjoyed reading what you shared with us, thank you so much for sharing your Ghazal. I particularly enjoyed your sh'er number 2 in the Ghazal and agree with Irfan sahib that 'yuuN' could probably be replaced with a better word that helps the flow in both the lines. 

Thank you Amit sahib and everyone else for your very useful advice. Although with using "yuuN" in "mehv-e-ishq yuuN" my intent was to point to the intensity of ishq (shiddat) but it is apparent that it may not be seen that way. I will be inclined to change it as suggested. 
 
> Also, something sounded odd to me with regards to sher number 4 and it was probably how the word "puraanaa" was used as well in this case. Maybe revisit the whole misra? 

Yet again, the message from everyone is very clear on this. However, from my perspective, I will just say that without considering the context of "puraanaa andaaz of berukhi" if one only pays attention to "puraanaa banaa liya" then it does indeed sound odd. However, I believe in the message received rather than what the intent was and based on advice of very knowledgeable experts in the group, I will try to rework on this she'r but my feeling is that I will end up deleting it.

I am learning a lot so appreciate all the advice from everyone!!!
 
> Once again, welcome to ALUP and thanks for sharing this lovely Ghazal! 
> 
> Regards 
> 
> Amit Malhotra

Best,
Anis

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 4:34:38 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 02:19:41 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> > On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 2:00:52 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote: 
> > > On Sunday, 20 March 2022 at 05:26:00 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote: 
> > > 
> > > > In sher #5, “kahnaa” should be “kahnii.” 
> > > > 
> > > > Sincerely, 
> > > > Irfan :Abid: 
> > > Irfan SaaHib, aadaab. 
> > > 
> > > Kahnaa thii dil kii baat ishaaroN meN hii Anis 
> > > GhazloN kaa aaj huam ne bahaanah bana liya 
> > > 
> > > This construction is part of Urdu grammar. One can write it in three ways. 
> > > 
> > > 1. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thii. 
> > > 
> > > "mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa." C.M.Na'im (az Barabanki) 
> > > 
> > > "Mominah, tujh se ek baat karnaa thii beTaa, agar tum buraa nah maano" (vuh naazniin- Farah Bukhari) 
> > > 
> > > 2. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnii thii. 
> > > 
> > > (baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii- Momin) 
> > > 
> > > 3. Anis ishaaroN meN hii dil kii baat kahnaa thaa. 
> > > 
> > > "haaN Hindu agar yih koshish kareN kih Bhaakaa meN jitne Farsi asmaa' mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa." 
> > > 
> > > "un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa, unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa." 
> > > 
> > > yih donoN jumule "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabaa'ii" se maaxuuz haiN. (Nazm Tabatabaa'ii) 
> > > 
> > > Naseer 
> > > 
> > Naseer sb, aadaab! 
> > 
> > Thanks for your note! I didn't mean to say that "baat kahnaa thii" is wrong. I meant to say it's preferred, and my comment was based on actual usage rather than official rules of grammar. I should have made it clear. "kahnaa thii" may be prevalent, but not prominently. I can't say much about Urdu prose as I don't read much of it these days, but in poetry you will almost always find "kahnii thii" used by reputed poets. Please do a search and let me know if you find different results as my observation may be misplaced. 
> > 
> > Sincerely, 
> > Irfan :Abid:
> Thank you for your clarification, Irfan SaaHib. 
> 
> I was under the impression (as per Maulavii Abdul Haq's Qavaa'id-i-Urdu) that "baat kahnii thii" is the Delhi School style whereas "baat kahnaa thii" is Lucknow style. If "reputable poets" are employing "kahnii thii", can one deduce that the Lucknow school is not producing any reputable poets or perhaps they are also adhering to the Delhi school? 
> 
> In a language forum, an Urdu speaker from Lucknow said the following, "So karnaa, lenaa, denaa, xariidnaa, bechnaa, khaanaa etc., all remain masculine even if the object noun is feminine, e.g. aap ko yeh kitaab (fem.) bechnaa hogii and not bechnii hogii; yeh sabzii (fem.) khaanaa hogii etc." This does provide backing to Maulavii Abdul Haq's statement. (There is also of course "baat kahnaa thaa", as shown by examples from Nazm Tabatabaa'ii. 
> 
> Naseer
>

Naseer sb, aadaab!

IMHO nowadays the distinction between the schools is fading away because learning is no longer happening in the classroom of a particular teacher who may belong to a certain school. Technology has revolutionized learning and one can utilize resources spread all over the map. As far as "kahnii thii" is concerned, one can't doubt the convention documented by a scholar of Maulvi Abdul Haq's stature, but as I said, actual usage even in classical poetry suggests that only "kahnii thii' has been in use. Mushafi, one of the most prominent poets of Lucknow in 19th century, says this:

daastaaN mujh ko apnii kahnii thii
qissa-e-iiN-o-aaN ko kyoN chheRaa (Mushafi)

Here are a couple of examples from prominent contemporary poets from UP and other places suggesting that almost everybody in India uses "kahnii thii." I am not including poets from Delhi because their preference for "kahnii thii" is not in question at all.

titliyaaN naachtii haiN
phuul se phuul pe yuuN jaatii haiN
jaise ik baat hai jo 
kaan meN kahnii hai ḳhaamoshii se (Akhtar Ul Iman, Bijnor, nazm 'baaz aamad - ek muntaj')

jo baat kahnii thii ab tak kahii nahiiN maiN ne
maiN iKhtitaam karuuN kaise is kahaanii kaa (Alam Khursheed, Patna)

Thahar ai mauj-e-shor-aagiiN-o-shor-aNgez-o-shor-afzaa
abhii ik baat kahnii hai mujhe yaaraan-e-saahil se (Shahid Siddiqui, Hyderabad)

And finally, some examples from Pakistan.

na koii baat kahnii hai na koii kaam karnaa hai
aur us ke baad kaafii der tak aaraam karnaa hai (Zafar Iqbal)

hamesha der kar detaa huuN maiN har kaam karne meN
zaruurii baat kahnii ho, koii va'da nibhaanaa ho (Munir Niyazi, nazm 'hameshaa der kar deta huuN')

Thaan rakkhii hai ki dil kii baat kahnii hai zaruur
us kii Khaatir Khvaah mahshar hii uThaa denaa paRe (Shahzad Ahmad)

haq baat kahuuNgaa magar ai jur'at-e-izhaar
jo baat na kahnii ho vahii baat na kah duuN (A N Qasmi)

Sincerely,
Irfan :Abid: