🚀 go-pugleaf

For book keeping purposes, I am pasting here the links to the previous three "aaj kaa she'r" threads.

aaj kaa she'r (#1):
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/E_tQANEKy1I

aaj kaa she'r (#2):
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/spM5_W6p8sU

aaj kaa she'r (#3):
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/_Y4ygE5lVCw

_________Zoya

On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 1:18:15 PM UTC-5, Zoya wrote:
> Friends, 
> 
> When I started the original "aaj kaa she'r" thread, little did I know that it will turn into a series. First of all, my sincere thanks to all group members who have participated actively in the previous three chapters of this thread. The posts are a lot more than a simple collection of asha'ar. It is sort of like the village square, where the group members get together for all sorts of discussions, mostly related to Urdu poetry and language. The earlier threads in this series have provided many learning opportunities for me personally. 
> 
> Irfan Abid sahib recently pointed out that the thread "aaj kaa she'r (#3)" was getting too long and it is time to start #4. I agree, so here we go! 
> 
> All of us are still living in an unprecedented globally stressful time, with no end in sight for the constantly mutating pandemic. This is the last day of 2021, a 'shapeless' year that has been very exhausting. 
> 
> To keep hopes alive for a better year ahead, Irfan sahib quoted this she'r by Ameer Qazalbash in his last post in the previous thread: 
> 
> ufuq kii kokh se suuraj kaa nuur niklegaa 
> ki shab ke ba'd saveraa zaruur niklegaa 
> 
> Let me start this new thread with a she'r from one of my favorite ghazals, by one of my favorite poets, Firaq Gorakhpuri: 
> 
> guzashta a'hd ki yaadoN ko phir karo taazaa 
> bujhe charaagh jalaao bahut andheraa hai 
> 
> Oh, how I would love to go back to 2019! 
> 
> I know our group has been rather slow lately, with very few active members, some of the veteran members on extended leaves of absence. If you have been away for a while and want to jump back on the Alup wagon, or are considering joining this group as a new member, this thread is an excellent place to start! :) 
> 
> See you around, 
> Hoping for a mundane, uneventful 2022, 
> 
> ________Zoya
>

Zoya sahiba, aadaab!

Thanks for starting this thread! My heartiest greetings for a Happy New Year to you and other ALUPers!

I want to add a humble she'r of mine here, but a quick note before that. The she'r you have quoted is my tukbandi, not Ameer Qazalbash's creation. :) The zameen is certainly his. I have just posted the Ghazal this matla's is from.

And here is a she'r for this thread:

jo gaye saal milaa zaKhm-e-jigar, rakhte haiN
ham naye saal se ummeed magar rakhte haiN

niyaazmand,
Irfan :Abid:

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 7:17:12 PM UTC-6, Irfan Abid wrote:

> Zoya sahiba, aadaab! 

aadaab, Irfan sahib,

> Thanks for starting this thread! My heartiest greetings for a Happy New Year to you and other ALUPers! 
> I want to add a humble she'r of mine here, but a quick note before that. The she'r you have quoted is my tukbandi, not Ameer Qazalbash's creation. :) 

Talking about the new year and Ameer Qazalbash, sab se pehle to aap  "biite hue kal kaa she'r" suniye, yeh bhi inhiiN kaa hai:

yakum January hai, nayaa saal hai
December meN puuchheNge kyaa haal hai! :)

The zameen is certainly his. I have just posted the Ghazal this matla's is from. 

Dah! No wonder I kept thinking about the matlaa and one other she'r that I like from a ghazal that I have heard often in Jagjit Singh's voice, I thought maybe that was by some other poet and the matlaa you quoted was Ameer Qazalbash's. I guess that is a compliment, you are obviously in the same league as Mr Qazalbash. Thanks for posting your ghazal.

In case someone else is wondering, maiN in do asha'ar kaa zikr kar rahii huuN:

mire junuuN ka natiijaa zaruur niklegaa
isii siyaah samandar se nuur niklegaa

usii ka shahr, vahii muddaii, vahii munsif
hameN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa qusuur niklegaa

> And here is a she'r for this thread: 

> jo gaye saal milaa zaKhm-e-jigar, rakhte haiN 
> ham naye saal se ummeed magar rakhte haiN 

is baat par aap "aaj kaa she'r" suniye, by my single most favorite poet, Nasir Kazmi:

kuchh to naazuk mizaaj haiN ham bhii
aur yeh choT bhii nayii hai abhii

> niyaazmand, 
> Irfan :Abid:

________Zoya

On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 11:07:29 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
<snip>

>
> usii ka shahr, vahii muddaii, vahii munsif
> hameN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa qusuur niklegaa

I realize it will not be in meter but ... I felt if only we can add "hii" in the 2nd line?

hameiN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa "hii" qusuur niklega

>
> ________Zoya

allah-o-ghani is dunia meiN, sarmaaya-parasti ka aalam,
bezar ka koi behnoi nahi, zardaar ke laakhoN saale hain - Shauq Behraichi

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 7:33:47 PM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

> > usii ka shahr, vahii muddaii, vahii munsif
> > hameN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa qusuur niklegaa

> I realize it will not be in meter but ... I felt if only we can add "hii" in the 2nd line?

Dinesh sahib,

Meter dissection time! :)

The bahr for this ghazal is

1212 /1122 /1212 /22

> hameiN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa "hii" qusuur niklega

I think we can accommodate 'hii', but something will have to give. Not that easy, 'hii' can be squeezed in, but have to be creative with 'hamaaraa' in front of it. One option is:

1  2  1    2      /1 1  2     2    /1  2  1  2  /   2    2
u sii ka shah/r va hii mud/da ii va hii/ mun sif
ya qiiN tha k-ha/maa raa hii/qu suu r nik/le gaa

Of course, this is contingent on approval by my ustaads RK sahib/Irfan sahib.

________Zoya

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 12:51:21 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 7:33:47 PM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
>
> > > usii ka shahr, vahii muddaii, vahii munsif
> > > hameN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa qusuur niklegaa
>
> > I realize it will not be in meter but ... I felt if only we can add "hii" in the 2nd line?

> Dinesh sahib,

> The bahr for this ghazal is
>
> 1212 /1122 /1212 /22
> > hameiN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa "hii" qusuur niklega
> I think we can accommodate 'hii', but something will have to give. Not that easy, 'hii' can be squeezed in, but have to be creative with 'hamaaraa' in front of it. One option is:
>
> 1 2 1 2 /1 1 2 2 /1 2 1 2 / 2 2
> u sii ka shah/r va hii mud/da ii va hii/ mun sif
> ya qiiN tha k-ha/maa raa hii/qu suu r nik/le gaa
>
> Of course, this is contingent on approval by my ustaads RK sahib/Irfan sahib.
>
> ________Zoya

***Sorry, Dinesh sahib, there is no room for the word "hii" (or even "hi") in this line.

R.K.***

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 3:12:50 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Sorry, Dinesh sahib, there is no room for the word "hii" (or even "hi") in this line. 
> 
> R.K.***

That settles it Dinesh sahib.
Thanks Prof RK. I kind of thought so too, tried variations with both hii/hi and posted one of the creations. It would have been easy if I could get away with 'hamaraa' as 112, but I dare not even suggest something like that in your presence or even your absence for that matter. :-)
Miss you already, so happy to see you in this thread.

Have a healthy 2022,

________Zoya

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 10:23:18 PM UTC-6, Mohit wrote:

> allah-o-ghani is dunia meiN, sarmaaya-parasti ka aalam,
> bezar ka koi behnoi nahi, zardaar ke laakhoN saale hain - Shauq Behraichi

Mohit, this reminded me of a she'r that I sometimes think about in fancy get togethers, surrounded by women of a 'certain economic class'. I have never quoted this, and even if I did, no one in such gatherings would understand it!

By Jaun Eliya:

yahaaN to jaazbiiyat bhi hai daulat hii ki parvardaa
yeh laRki faaqa_kash hotii, to badsuurat nazar aatii

On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 21:12:50 UTC, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 12:51:21 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 7:33:47 PM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> >
> > > > usii ka shahr, vahii muddaii, vahii munsif
> > > > hameN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa qusuur niklegaa
> >
> > > I realize it will not be in meter but ... I felt if only we can add "hii" in the 2nd line?
>
> > Dinesh sahib,
> > The bahr for this ghazal is
> >
> > 1212 /1122 /1212 /22
> > > hameiN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa "hii" qusuur niklega
> > I think we can accommodate 'hii', but something will have to give. Not that easy, 'hii' can be squeezed in, but have to be creative with 'hamaaraa' in front of it. One option is:
> >
> > 1 2 1 2 /1 1 2 2 /1 2 1 2 / 2 2
> > u sii ka shah/r va hii mud/da ii va hii/ mun sif
> > ya qiiN tha k-ha/maa raa hii/qu suu r nik/le gaa
> >
> > Of course, this is contingent on approval by my ustaads RK sahib/Irfan sahib.
> >
> > ________Zoya
> ***Sorry, Dinesh sahib, there is no room for the word "hii" (or even "hi") in this line.
>
> R.K.***
Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

In the first misra3 of this shi3r, is the consonant 3ain missing in the word mudda3ii which has perhaps compelled Dinesh SaaHib to expect a hii/hi in the second misra3?

Naseer

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 3:57:22 PM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:

> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab. 
> 
> In the first misra3 of this shi3r, is the consonant 3ain missing in the word mudda3ii which has perhaps compelled Dinesh SaaHib to expect a hii/hi in the second misra3? 
> 
> Naseer

Prof RK, 

As your self appointed TA, may I please try to answer this question? Regardless of the transliteration style for "ain" in Roman, be it  '  .  3 or nothing, the weight of ain has been accounted for in muddaii -> 212. ain by itself is weight 1, pairing it with a preceding d is still weight 1. So, unless we focus on how Roman Urdu is written, there is no cause for confusion here. Of course, Dinesh sahib can speak for himself and let us know if this was an issue for him, or not.

Thank you all for joining in this discussion. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said this thread is more than just a simple collection of asha'ar! :)

The fun continues,

________Zoya

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:57:22 PM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 21:12:50 UTC, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 12:51:21 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 7:33:47 PM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > >
> > > > > usii ka shahr, vahii muddaii, vahii munsif
> > > > > hameN yaqiiN tha hamaaraa qusuur niklegaa
> > >
> > > > I realize it will not be in meter but ... I felt if only we can add "hii" in the 2nd line?

> > ***Sorry, Dinesh sahib, there is no room for the word "hii" (or even "hi") in this line.
> >
> > R.K.***

> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> In the first misra3 of this shi3r, is the consonant 3ain missing in the word mudda3ii which has perhaps compelled Dinesh SaaHib to expect a hii/hi in the second misra3?
>
***Frankly, I don't think so. At the same time, I can't say what propelled Dinesh sahib to suggest what he did.

Even though ZS has already resolved this query via (1,2)-notation, let me try it a different way that requires me to compare the two misr'as of this she'r written vertically rather than horizontally ------------- just for you, Naseer sahib!   :-)

usii = hameN
ka shah = yaqeeN
r = tha (effectively, th)
vahii = hamaa
mudda'ii = raa qusuu (note that the sound of Harf 'ain' is duly taken care of)
vahii = r nik
munsif = le ga

As you can see, all syllables in the two misr'as match perfectly, which means that there is no room here for an extra "hii", or even "hi".

Moreover, if there were any genuine problem here, Irfan sahib would have already noted it, which he didn't.

R.K.***

On Sunday, 9 January 2022 at 04:23:54 UTC, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Frankly, I don't think so. At the same time, I can't say what propelled Dinesh sahib to suggest what he did.
>
> Even though ZS has already resolved this query via (1,2)-notation, let me try it a different way that requires me to compare the two misr'as of this she'r written vertically rather than horizontally ------------- just for you, Naseer sahib! :-)
>
> usii = hameN
> ka shah = yaqeeN
> r = tha (effectively, th)
> vahii = hamaa
> mudda'ii = raa qusuu (note that the sound of Harf 'ain' is duly taken care of)
> vahii = r nik
> munsif = le ga
>
> As you can see, all syllables in the two misr'as match perfectly, which means that there is no room here for an extra "hii", or even "hi".
>
> Moreover, if there were any genuine problem here, Irfan sahib would have already noted it, which he didn't.
>
> R.K.***
Thank you very much indeed Raj Kumar SaaHib for an explanation which even the remedial children in the class can understand!:-)
Naseer

Thought of the day:

Today is the gurpurab celebrating Guru Gobind Singh's birthday. One of my most favorite nazms of all time is an ode praising the qualities of Guru Gobind Singh, written in Persian by Bhai Nand Lal Goya, who was a contemporary of Guru sahib.  The only hymns that can be sung in gurdwaras are the ones included in Guru Granth sahib, but some of Bhai Nand Lal's poetry is an exception, this being one of them. 

It is a long nazm and many Sikh raagis have sung portions of it. I am sharing a recording of the first few asha'ar of the nazm in Bhai Harjinder Singh's voice. I think the group members will definitely appreciate how well Bhai Nand Lal has expressed his feelings and devotion towards Guru Gobind Singh, I find this poetry par excellence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RJICpsC9hQ

________Zoya

On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 3:28:09 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> On Sunday, 9 January 2022 at 04:23:54 UTC, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> > ***Frankly, I don't think so. At the same time, I can't say what propelled Dinesh sahib to suggest what he did.
> >
> > Even though ZS has already resolved this query via (1,2)-notation, let me try it a different way that requires me to compare the two misr'as of this she'r written vertically rather than horizontally ------------- just for you, Naseer sahib! :-)
> >
> > usii = hameN
> > ka shah = yaqeeN
> > r = tha (effectively, th)
> > vahii = hamaa
> > mudda'ii = raa qusuu (note that the sound of Harf 'ain' is duly taken care of)
> > vahii = r nik
> > munsif = le ga
> >
> > As you can see, all syllables in the two misr'as match perfectly, which means that there is no room here for an extra "hii", or even "hi".
> >
> > Moreover, if there were any genuine problem here, Irfan sahib would have already noted it, which he didn't.
> >
> > R.K.***
> Thank you very much indeed Raj Kumar SaaHib for an explanation which even the remedial children in the class can understand!:-)
> Naseer

***Thanks for your response, Naseer sahib. I am glad that this explanation was successful in satisfying your curiosity.

I, on the other hand, kept wondering all night "what, if Naseer sahib continues to have doubts about this matter"? With that possibility in mind, I came up with another explanation which is so simple, yet so convincing. Let me present it here for fun.

Suppose the misr'a were
mujhe yaqiiN tha, miraa hii qusuur nikle gaa --------- (1).
No one would have raised any issue with it.

However, the misr'a in question is
hameN yaqiiN tha, hamaaraa qusuur nikle gaa ---------- (2)

Comparing the relevant portions of these two misr'as vazn-wise, we note that
mujhe = hameN and miraa hii = hamaa raa
goyaa, misr'a #2 meN "hii" ka maqaam "raa" ne le rakkhaa hai; nateejatan, yahaaN aek mazeed "hii" ki guNjaa'ish nahiiN hai!     QED

R.K.

On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 12:38:36 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 3:28:09 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> > On Sunday, 9 January 2022 at 04:23:54 UTC, Raj Kumar wrote:
> >
> > > ***Frankly, I don't think so. At the same time, I can't say what propelled Dinesh sahib to suggest what he did.
> > >
> > > Even though ZS has already resolved this query via (1,2)-notation, let me try it a different way that requires me to compare the two misr'as of this she'r written vertically rather than horizontally ------------- just for you, Naseer sahib! :-)
> > >
> > > usii = hameN
> > > ka shah = yaqeeN
> > > r = tha (effectively, th)
> > > vahii = hamaa
> > > mudda'ii = raa qusuu (note that the sound of Harf 'ain' is duly taken care of)
> > > vahii = r nik
> > > munsif = le ga
> > >
> > > As you can see, all syllables in the two misr'as match perfectly, which means that there is no room here for an extra "hii", or even "hi".
> > >
> > > Moreover, if there were any genuine problem here, Irfan sahib would have already noted it, which he didn't.
> > >
> > > R.K.***
> > Thank you very much indeed Raj Kumar SaaHib for an explanation which even the remedial children in the class can understand!:-)
> > Naseer
> ***Thanks for your response, Naseer sahib. I am glad that this explanation was successful in satisfying your curiosity.
>
> I, on the other hand, kept wondering all night "what, if Naseer sahib continues to have doubts about this matter"? With that possibility in mind, I came up with another explanation which is so simple, yet so convincing. Let me present it here for fun.
>
> Suppose the misr'a were
> mujhe yaqiiN tha, miraa hii qusuur nikle gaa --------- (1).
> No one would have raised any issue with it.
>
> However, the misr'a in question is
> hameN yaqiiN tha, hamaaraa qusuur nikle gaa ---------- (2)
>
> Comparing the relevant portions of these two misr'as vazn-wise, we note that
> mujhe = hameN and miraa hii = hamaa raa
> goyaa, misr'a #2 meN "hii" ka maqaam "raa" ne le rakkhaa hai; nateejatan, yahaaN aek mazeed "hii" ki guNjaa'ish nahiiN hai! QED
>
> R.K.

Raj Kumar sahib,

I just felt that the addition of hii makes it more ... "whiny" ... in a good way? So, "I" like your version better ...

"mujhe yaqiiN tha, miraa hii qusuur nikle gaa "

Also, what you casually call "so simple", I call it "brilliant"  :)


Dinesh

On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 4:20:43 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 12:38:36 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 3:28:09 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 9 January 2022 at 04:23:54 UTC, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > >
> > > > ***Frankly, I don't think so. At the same time, I can't say what propelled Dinesh sahib to suggest what he did.
> > > >
> > > > Even though ZS has already resolved this query via (1,2)-notation, let me try it a different way that requires me to compare the two misr'as of this she'r written vertically rather than horizontally ------------- just for you, Naseer sahib! :-)
> > > >
> > > > usii = hameN
> > > > ka shah = yaqeeN
> > > > r = tha (effectively, th)
> > > > vahii = hamaa
> > > > mudda'ii = raa qusuu (note that the sound of Harf 'ain' is duly taken care of)
> > > > vahii = r nik
> > > > munsif = le ga
> > > >
> > > > As you can see, all syllables in the two misr'as match perfectly, which means that there is no room here for an extra "hii", or even "hi".
> > > >
> > > > Moreover, if there were any genuine problem here, Irfan sahib would have already noted it, which he didn't.
> > > >
> > > > R.K.***
> > > Thank you very much indeed Raj Kumar SaaHib for an explanation which even the remedial children in the class can understand!:-)
> > > Naseer
> > ***Thanks for your response, Naseer sahib. I am glad that this explanation was successful in satisfying your curiosity.
> >
> > I, on the other hand, kept wondering all night "what, if Naseer sahib continues to have doubts about this matter"? With that possibility in mind, I came up with another explanation which is so simple, yet so convincing. Let me present it here for fun.
> >
> > Suppose the misr'a were
> > mujhe yaqiiN tha, miraa hii qusuur nikle gaa --------- (1).
> > No one would have raised any issue with it.
> >
> > However, the misr'a in question is
> > hameN yaqiiN tha, hamaaraa qusuur nikle gaa ---------- (2)
> >
> > Comparing the relevant portions of these two misr'as vazn-wise, we note that
> > mujhe = hameN and miraa hii = hamaa raa
> > goyaa, misr'a #2 meN "hii" ka maqaam "raa" ne le rakkhaa hai; nateejatan, yahaaN aek mazeed "hii" ki guNjaa'ish nahiiN hai! QED
> >
> > R.K.
> Raj Kumar sahib,
>
> I just felt that the addition of hii makes it more ... "whiny" ... in a good way? So, "I" like your version better ...
> "mujhe yaqiiN tha, miraa hii qusuur nikle gaa "
> Also, what you casually call "so simple", I call it "brilliant" :)
>

***Thanks, Dinesh sahib, you made my day!   :-)

R.K.***

An old favorite, an occasional thought, aaj kaa she'r:

ab tiraa zikr bhi shaayad hi ghazal meN aaye
aur ke aur hue dard ke unvaaN jaanaaN

Thought/poem of the Day:

On MLK Day, I listened to some timeless speeches by Dr King this morning on NPR. Most of what he said is still relevant today, and these words have been reverberating with me:

"There comes a time when silence is betrayal".

This quote reminds me of a nazm by Faiz Ahmed Faiz:

bol, k lab aazaad haiN tere
bol, zabaaN ab tak terii hai
...........
bol, k sach zindah hai ab tak
bol, jo kuchh kehna hai keh le!

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On Tuesday, 18 January 2022 at 16:27:03 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 3:03:54 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote: 
> > Thought/poem of the Day: 
> > 
> > On MLK Day, I listened to some timeless speeches by Dr King this morning on NPR. Most of what he said is still relevant today, and these words have been reverberating with me: 
> > 
> > "There comes a time when silence is betrayal". 
> >
> <snip> 
> 
> Zoya sahiba, 
> 
> Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> 
> समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> 
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> 
> Btw, my favorite MLK quote is .., 
> “I have decided to stick with love. 
> Hate is too great a burden to bear.” 
> 
> Dinesh

Dinesh Jii aadaab.

Could you please provide a translation of the Hindi couplet.

Naseer

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On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 10:27:03 AM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

> > "There comes a time when silence is betrayal". 

> Zoya sahiba, 
> 
> Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> 
> समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> 
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 

Dinesh sahib, thanks for this couplet, I still find it as amazing as I did when you shared it the first time in the other thread. I also remember I had to look up the meaning of 'vyaadh' back then, in case anyone else is wondering too, it means 'hunter'.
 
> Btw, my favorite MLK quote is .., 
> “I have decided to stick with love. 
> Hate is too great a burden to bear.” 

Brilliant. And this reminds me of an Ahmad Faraz she'r:

yeh log kaise magar dushmanii nibhaate haiN
hameN to raas na aayiiN muhabbateN karnii!

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:30:00 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
>
> samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
>
> Thanks in advance,
> R.K.***

RK sahib,

Our messages obviously crossed, I already talked about 'vyaadh'!.:)
I can give the meanings of the other Hindi/Sanskrit words and try paraphrasing, but Dinesh sahib will do a much better job, so I too will wait for him to respond.

shesh vaartalaap Dinesh sahib kareN ge.

______Zoya

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > 
> > Zoya sahiba, 
> > 
> > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> > 
> > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> > 
> > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > 
> >
> > Dinesh 
> 
> ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words: 
> 
> samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth 
> 
> Thanks in advance, 
> R.K.***

RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)

samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
-- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
aparaadh=crime
Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent

Dinesh

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 6:55:01 PM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

Dinesh sahib,

aap muKhaatib to Prof RK se haiN, lekin jab tak voh tashriif laate haiN, ijaazat ho to ek do baateN maiN karti chaluuN? :)

> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?

* Left is fine, but I would probably use 'remaining' for 'shesh'.

> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word

*I am curious what Urdu word Prof RK will suggest for indifferent, but I am thinking "laa_ta'alluq".

is baat par aap aaj shaam kaa she'r sunte bhi jaaiye, baqaul Abbas Tabish:

laa_ta'alluq nazar aataa thaa bazaahir lekin
shahr ko us ne mirii Khair-Khabar par rakhkhaa :)


> aparaadh=crime

* Of course, jurm.

_________Zoya

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:55:01 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Zoya sahiba, 
> > > 
> > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> > > 
> > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> > > 
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dinesh 
> > 
> > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words: 
> > 
> > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth 
> > 
> > Thanks in advance, 
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar 
> samar = war/fight; jung in urdu? 
> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu? 
> vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu? 
> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word 
> aparaadh=crime 
> Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ... 
> The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed) 
> Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent 
> 
> Dinesh

***Thanks, Dinesh sahib!

For taTasth (= neutral, non-partisan), the corresponding Urdu word is Ghair-jaanib-daar (= not taking sides).

You know jaanib-daar = taraf-daar. Hence the word Ghair-jaanib-daar, though I have never seen Ghair-taraf-daar in use.

chaliye, isi baat par aek she'r sunte jaaiye:

bhejaa tha maiN ne apnii taraf se jinheN vahaaN
jaate hi vaaN sab us ke taraf-daar ho gaye!

R.K.***

On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Zoya sahiba, 
> > > 
> > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> > > 
> > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> > > 
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dinesh 
> > 
> > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words: 
> > 
> > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth 
> > 
> > Thanks in advance, 
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar 
> samar = war/fight; jung in urdu? 
> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu? 
> vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu? 
> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word 
> aparaadh=crime 
> Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ... 
> The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed) 
> Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent 
> 
> Dinesh
Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab.

Thank you once again for this quote. It's all very well to quote poetry of this type along with Faiz Ahmed Faiz's "bol kih lab aazaad haiN tere..., Pastor Martin Niemöller's "First they came for socialists, and I did not speak out..." and Martin Luther King's "A time comes when silence is betrayal". The question is what can ordinary people like us do to stem the kinds of crimes you mention in your quote. I suppose one can write to people in authority, take part in demonstrations and the like but this is easier in some countries than others. Having said this, I have done my best (I think) and taken part in these activities.

There are of course people who speak out and are continuing to speak put. Examples of these are Arundhati Roy, Karan Thapar, Naseeruddin Shah, Norman Finklestein, Gideon Levy, George Galloway and many more. 

A friend of mine once said to me, "Naseer, don't discuss religion and politics with your friends. If you do, you will loose their friendship." There is a lot of wisdom in this. I tried to "spread the message" to a few people I knew. One of my English friends whose faith I was not aware of, does not see me as a friend any more. Two Sikh friends don't really see any problem in what's happening in India and are no longer communicating with me. Two or three Hindu friends do not respond at all about these matters. So, it seems to be a waste of time and there is no point speaking to the "converted"! So, I don't know if I am still betraying the victims or not.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFri_SoPN28&ab_channel=TheWire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=897NPRpvOYU&ab_channel=TheWire

Naseer

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 11:54:21 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:55:01 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 

> > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 

> > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; 

> For taTasth (= neutral, non-partisan), the corresponding Urdu word is Ghair-jaanib-daar (= not taking sides). 
> 
> You know jaanib-daar = taraf-daar. Hence the word Ghair-jaanib-daar, though I have never seen Ghair-taraf-daar in use. 

RK sahib/Dinesh sahib,

I think we need to distinguish between 'neutral' and 'indifferent', similar words but not exact synonyms. I totally agree with RK sahib that 'neutral' would be ghair-jaanib-daar,  and as I had said earlier, 'indifferent' is more like 'laa_ta'alluq'.

Coming back to the Dinkar's couplet and taTasth, I think it is a compound word literally meaning taT par stith i.e. kinaare par baiThha hua. I can visualize this as someone sitting on the coast, watching but intentionally not getting involved in any turbulence. Or maybe someone just relaxing on the beach, enjoying the sea breeze, totally indifferent to what else is going around. So neutral or indifferent? Or either??

At a personal level, there are some situations where I understand two opposing points of view, on issues big and small, and decide to stay neutral. And then there are matters that I really don't care about and am totally indifferent to what others think or say about. But if there is a gross injustice, as implied in Dinkar's couplet, it is hard for any person of good conscience to be either neutral or indifferent. 
 
> chaliye, isi baat par aek she'r sunte jaaiye: 
> 
> bhejaa tha maiN ne apnii taraf se jinheN vahaaN 
> jaate hi vaaN sab us ke taraf-daar ho gaye! 
> 
> R.K.***

RK sahib, baat taraf-daari kii ho rahi hai to ab aap meri pasand kaa ek she'r suniye, baqaul Saaghar Siddiqui:

Hashr meN kaun gavaahii miri degaa 'Saaghar'
sab tumhaare hi taraf-daar nazar aate haiN! :-)

_________Zoya

On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Zoya sahiba, 
> > > 
> > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> > > 
> > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> > > 
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dinesh 
> > 
> > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words: 
> > 
> > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth 
> > 
> > Thanks in advance, 
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar 
> samar = war/fight; jung in urdu? 
> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu? 
> vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu? 
> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word 
> aparaadh=crime 
> Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ... 
> The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed) 
> Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent 
> 
> Dinesh

Dinesh SaaHib, I've checked a couple of dictionaries and they don't don't provide the meaning for "vyaadha" as "opressor" but only give "hunter".

My attempt at re-writing this couplet in Urdu. Hopefully, RK SaaHib will correct the vazn etc.

jang jaarii hai, nahiiN jurm meN shariik faqat saiyyaad (hunter)
jo laa-parvaa haiN vaqt likhe gaa un kii bhii be-daad (injustice)

Perhaps "faqat" can be changed to "sirf" to add a bit of alliteration.

Naseer

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 8:10:36 AM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 11:54:21 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:55:01 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> 
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute;
> > For taTasth (= neutral, non-partisan), the corresponding Urdu word is Ghair-jaanib-daar (= not taking sides). 
> > 
> > You know jaanib-daar = taraf-daar. Hence the word Ghair-jaanib-daar, though I have never seen Ghair-taraf-daar in use.
> RK sahib/Dinesh sahib, 
> 
> I think we need to distinguish between 'neutral' and 'indifferent', similar words but not exact synonyms. I totally agree with RK sahib that 'neutral' would be ghair-jaanib-daar, and as I had said earlier, 'indifferent' is more like 'laa_ta'alluq'. 
> 
> Coming back to the Dinkar's couplet and taTasth, I think it is a compound word literally meaning taT par stith i.e. kinaare par baiThha hua. I can visualize this as someone sitting on the coast, watching but intentionally not getting involved in any turbulence. Or maybe someone just relaxing on the beach, enjoying the sea breeze, totally indifferent to what else is going around. So neutral or indifferent? Or either?? 
> 
> At a personal level, there are some situations where I understand two opposing points of view, on issues big and small, and decide to stay neutral. And then there are matters that I really don't care about and am totally indifferent to what others think or say about. But if there is a gross injustice, as implied in Dinkar's couplet, it is hard for any person of good conscience to be either neutral or indifferent.

laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.

> > chaliye, isi baat par aek she'r sunte jaaiye: 
> > 
> > bhejaa tha maiN ne apnii taraf se jinheN vahaaN 
> > jaate hi vaaN sab us ke taraf-daar ho gaye! 
> > 
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, baat taraf-daari kii ho rahi hai to ab aap meri pasand kaa ek she'r suniye, baqaul Saaghar Siddiqui: 
> 
> Hashr meN kaun gavaahii miri degaa 'Saaghar' 
> sab tumhaare hi taraf-daar nazar aate haiN! :-) 
> 
> _________Zoya

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 9:16:54 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > Zoya sahiba, 
> > > > 
> > > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> > > > 
> > > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> > > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> > > > 
> > > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Dinesh 
> > > 
> > > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words: 
> > > 
> > > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth 
> > > 
> > > Thanks in advance, 
> > > R.K.*** 
> > RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :) 
> > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar 
> > samar = war/fight; jung in urdu? 
> > shesh = left; baaqii in urdu? 
> > vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu? 
> > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word 
> > aparaadh=crime 
> > Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ... 
> > The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed) 
> > Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent 
> > 
> > Dinesh
> Dinesh SaaHib, I've checked a couple of dictionaries and they don't don't provide the meaning for "vyaadha" as "opressor" but only give "hunter". 
> 
> My attempt at re-writing this couplet in Urdu. Hopefully, RK SaaHib will correct the vazn etc. 
> 
> jang jaarii hai, nahiiN jurm meN shariik faqat saiyyaad (hunter) 
> jo laa-parvaa haiN vaqt likhe gaa un kii bhii be-daad (injustice) 
> 
> Perhaps "faqat" can be changed to "sirf" to add a bit of alliteration. 
> 
> Naseer
 لاتعلق کھڑے جو یہ بے حس ہیں سب  وقت ان بےحسوں کا کرے گا حساب
laat'aalluq kharay jo ye bayhiss hain sab, waqt in bay hisoN ka karay ga hisaab

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:18:05 PM UTC-8, bekas Murray wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 9:16:54 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Zoya sahiba, 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ... 
> > > > > 
> > > > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध 
> > > > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध 
> > > > > 
> > > > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dinesh 
> > > > 
> > > > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words: 
> > > > 
> > > > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks in advance, 
> > > > R.K.*** 
> > > RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :) 
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh 
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh 
> > > -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar 
> > > samar = war/fight; jung in urdu? 
> > > shesh = left; baaqii in urdu? 
> > > vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu? 
> > > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word 
> > > aparaadh=crime 
> > > Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ... 
> > > The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed) 
> > > Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent 
> > > 
> > > Dinesh 
> > Dinesh SaaHib, I've checked a couple of dictionaries and they don't don't provide the meaning for "vyaadha" as "opressor" but only give "hunter". 
> > 
> > My attempt at re-writing this couplet in Urdu. Hopefully, RK SaaHib will correct the vazn etc. 
> > 
> > jang jaarii hai, nahiiN jurm meN shariik faqat saiyyaad (hunter) 
> > jo laa-parvaa haiN vaqt likhe gaa un kii bhii be-daad (injustice) 
> > 
> > Perhaps "faqat" can be changed to "sirf" to add a bit of alliteration. 
> > 
> > Naseer
> لاتعلق کھڑے جو یہ بے حس ہیں سب وقت ان بےحسوں کا کرے گا حساب 
jang hai ab musalsal, nahiN daam maiN bas shikaarii hi roaz e hisaab
> laat'aalluq kharay jo ye bayhiss hain sab, waqt in bay hisoN ka karay ga hisaab

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:

> laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.

bekas sahib, thanks for joining this discussion, the more the merrier! :)

You have described laata'alluq and behis well, behis being on the high end of the indifference spectrum. Bad, unfeeling. But sometimes it may be sort of a defense mechanism, necessary for survival?

This reminds me of something else now. Recently, I was thinking about the difference between two words used a lot these days: misinformation and disinformation.
Misinformation is simply spreading info that is false or wrong, usually without being even aware that it may not be true, and probably with no malicious intent.
Disinformation on the other hand is deliberately spreading misleading or biased information. Much worse.

Interesting stuff. How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??

ab aap 'behisii' par Fatima Hasan kaa ek she'r sunte jaaiye, is kaa qaafia zaraa 'unexpected' hai, aur mujhe pasand hai:

'Fatima' dard ke rishte se kinaaraa karnaa
behisii keh lo ise, yeh koi nirvaan nahiiN

And so it continues,

__________Zoya

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:03:00 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.
> bekas sahib, thanks for joining this discussion, the more the merrier! :)
>
> You have described laata'alluq and behis well, behis being on the high end of the indifference spectrum. Bad, unfeeling. But sometimes it may be sort of a defense mechanism, necessary for survival?
>

A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i

> This reminds me of something else now. Recently, I was thinking about the difference between two words used a lot these days: misinformation and disinformation.
> Misinformation is simply spreading info that is false or wrong, usually without being even aware that it may not be true, and probably with no malicious intent.
> Disinformation on the other hand is deliberately spreading misleading or biased information. Much worse.
>
> Interesting stuff. How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
>
ghalat baat or jhoot

> ab aap 'behisii' par Fatima Hasan kaa ek she'r sunte jaaiye, is kaa qaafia zaraa 'unexpected' hai, aur mujhe pasand hai:
>
> 'Fatima' dard ke rishte se kinaaraa karnaa
> behisii keh lo ise, yeh koi nirvaan nahiiN
>
> And so it continues,
>
> __________Zoya

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 5:08:55 PM UTC-8, bekas Murray wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:03:00 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote: 
> > 
> > > laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent. 
> > bekas sahib, thanks for joining this discussion, the more the merrier! :) 
> > 
> > You have described laata'alluq and behis well, behis being on the high end of the indifference spectrum. Bad, unfeeling. But sometimes it may be sort of a defense mechanism, necessary for survival? 
> >
> A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> > This reminds me of something else now. Recently, I was thinking about the difference between two words used a lot these days: misinformation and disinformation. 
> > Misinformation is simply spreading info that is false or wrong, usually without being even aware that it may not be true, and probably with no malicious intent. 
> > Disinformation on the other hand is deliberately spreading misleading or biased information. Much worse. 
> > 
> > Interesting stuff. How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi?? 
> >

dis·in·for·ma·tion
/ˌdisənfərˈmāSH(ə)n/
noun
false information which is intended to mislead, especially propaganda issued by a government organization to a rival power or the media.
"the entire Western intelligence system had been systematically manipulated with clever disinformation"

mis·in·for·ma·tion
/ˌmisinfərˈmāSH(ə)n/
noun
false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive.
"nuclear matters are often entangled in a web of secrecy and misinformation"

If one looks at the prefixes
mis- prefix
Definition of mis- (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: badly : wrongly
misjudge
b: unfavorably
misesteem
c: in a suspicious manner
misdoubt
2: bad : wrong
misdeed
3: opposite or lack of
mistrust
4: not
misknow

dis- prefix
Definition of dis- (Entry 5 of 5)
1a: do the opposite of
disestablish
b: deprive of (a specified quality, rank, or object)
disfranchise
c: exclude or expel from
disbar
2: opposite or absence of
disunion
disaffection
3: not
disagreeable
4: completely
disannul
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dis
By number 4 disinformation would mean complete information :)

> ghalat baat or jhoot
> > ab aap 'behisii' par Fatima Hasan kaa ek she'r sunte jaaiye, is kaa qaafia zaraa 'unexpected' hai, aur mujhe pasand hai: 
> > 
> > 'Fatima' dard ke rishte se kinaaraa karnaa 
> > behisii keh lo ise, yeh koi nirvaan nahiiN 
> > 
> > And so it continues, 
> > 
> > __________Zoya

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:

> A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i

I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.

"khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.

Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)

> > Misinformation
> > Disinformation

> > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??

> ghalat baat or jhoot

Hmmmmmmm,  disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of  'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.

________Zoya

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
>
> "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
>
> Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)

***
yeh Qais k barsoN se is bazm ki raunaq thaa
qismat ne banaa Daalaa Khaamosh tamaashaa'ii

R.K.

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 6:10:30 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:

> > Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phrase? Please? :)
> ***
> yeh Qais k barsoN se is bazm ki raunaq thaa
> qismat ne banaa Daalaa Khaamosh tamaashaa'ii
>
> R.K.

vaah vaah, kya baat hai Raj uncle. Spontaneous and superb. :-)

aap jaante haiN is par maiN kyaa kehne vaali huuN:

ab aksar chup chup se rahe haiN, yuuNhi kabhu lab khole haiN
pehle 'Firaaq' ko dekhaa hotaa, ab to bahut kam bole haiN

kam kam hii sahii, magar aap bolte zaruur rahiye. aap ke baghair mehfil meN jii nahiiN lagtaa.

salaamat rahiye.

_________Zoya

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
>
> "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
>
> Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)
>
> > > Misinformation
> > > Disinformation
> > > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
>
> > ghalat baat or jhoot
> Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.
>

jhoot ka iblaagh
jhoot phailaanaa

> ________Zoya

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 12:24:16 PM UTC-8, bekas Murray wrote:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
> >
> > > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> > I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
> >
> > "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
> >
> > Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)
> >
> > > > Misinformation
> > > > Disinformation
> > > > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
> >
> > > ghalat baat or jhoot
> > Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.
> >
> jhoot ka iblaagh
> jhoot phailaanaa
>
An expression that is used is "jhoot ka palanda"
> > ________Zoya

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
>

Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

> "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
>
> Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)
>
> > > Misinformation
> > > Disinformation
> > > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
>
> > ghalat baat or jhoot
> Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.
>
> ________Zoya

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 10:03:36 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:

> Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

What???????? Who are these guys? Never heard of them. :-)

aur ab maiN yeh soch rahi huuN k agar Raj uncle se is 'phrase' par ek she'r likhne kii farmaaish karuuN, to bhalaa voh kya kaheNge? :-))

On Tuesday, 1 February 2022 at 04:03:36 UTC, bekas Murray wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
> >
> > > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> > I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
> >
> Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

summun,  bukmun, 3umyun [fa-hum laa yarji3uun]  {Qur'an 2:18}

 They are (wilfully) deaf, dumb, and blind, [so they will not return] (to the Right Path)

Naseer

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 8:30:16 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 10:03:36 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote: 
> 
> > Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun
> What???????? Who are these guys? Never heard of them. :-) 
> 
They are the deaf, the dumb, the blind (metaphorically when used in this context)
samaa'at is used in Urdu for hearing probably from the same root.
may be the same in gumsum. Not sure. The linguists can speak to that.

ummi is used in urdu more in the sense of ignorant but from Platts
A اعمي aʻmā, adj. Blind; ignorant; — s.m. A desert.

In English we have "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"
The phrase is often used to refer to those who deal with impropriety by turning a blind eye.
In the original Japanese:
The saying in Japanese is mizaru, kikazaru, iwazaru (見ざる, 聞かざる, 言わざる) "see not, hear not, speak not", where the -zaru is a negative conjugation on the three verbs, matching zaru, the modified form of saru (猿) "monkey" used in compounds. Thus the saying (which does not include any specific reference to "evil") can also be interpreted as referring to three monkeys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys


> aur ab maiN yeh soch rahi huuN k agar Raj uncle se is 'phrase' par ek she'r likhne kii farmaaish karuuN, to bhalaa voh kya kaheNge? :-))

> > > Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun 

> In English we have "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" 

Thank you, gentlemen.

I was not familiar with the Qur'anic reference, but know about the Japanese connection.

However, growing up in India, we always associated the three wise monkeys with Mahatma Gandhi. We called them "baapu ke tiin bandar", and even had three little monkey figurines displayed in our home, each one covering eyes, ears or mouth. Regardless of the origin, this mantra is golden, only if we could follow it!

And now that I understand the 'phrase', let me quote the perfect she'r to go along with it, by Mirza Ghalib of course: 

na suno gar buraa kahe koii
na kaho gar buraa kare koii

________Zoya

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 5:27:36 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > > > Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun
> > In English we have "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"
> Thank you, gentlemen. 
> 
> I was not familiar with the Qur'anic reference, but know about the Japanese connection. 
> 
> However, growing up in India, we always associated the three wise monkeys with Mahatma Gandhi. We called them "baapu ke tiin bandar", and even had three little monkey figurines displayed in our home, each one covering eyes, ears or mouth. Regardless of the origin, this mantra is golden, only if we could follow it! 
> 
here the meaning is more towards not to participate in the acts and also not to see them to keep you out of trouble or bad acts. In the context of the earlier discussion the meaning is more in the sense of to not see and hear and speak even when you are actually hearing and seeing that which should offend.

> And now that I understand the 'phrase', let me quote the perfect she'r to go along with it, by Mirza Ghalib of course: 
> 
> na suno gar buraa kahe koii 
> na kaho gar buraa kare koii 
> 
I think here the context is more on a personal note that is not to respond when you are attacked by words or deeds. In the very next sher ghalib writes:
rok lo gar ġhalat chale koī 
baḳhsh do gar ḳhatā kare koī 


> ________Zoya

2KrZj9mFINqp2Ygg2obavtmI2YbbkiDZhduM2rog2KjavtuMINin2YbYr9uM2LTbgdmQINix2Y/Y
s9mI2KfYptuMINuB25IK2YXbjNq6INmG25Ig2obavtuBINiz2KfZhCDaqduMINm+24HZhNuSINio
2r7bjCDYs9iy2Kcg2b7Yp9im24wg24HbkgoKdHVtIGtvIGNoaG9vbmF5IG1laU4gYmhpIGFkZXNo
YS1lLXJ1c3dhYWlpIGhhaQptYWlOIG5lIGNoaGUgc2FhbCBraSBwZWhsZSBiaGkgc2F6YSBwYWFp
aSBoYWkK

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 10:05:08 AM UTC-6, Shoaib Tanvir wrote:

> tum ko chhoonay meiN bhi adesha-e-ruswaaii hai
> maiN ne chhe saal ki pehle bhi saza paaii hai

Always good to see you here Shoaib sahib.
 sirf chhe saal ki sazaa? Not bad! :-)

vaise aap to pehle se hii Valentine's Day vaghaira ko nahiiN maante, magar abhi kuchh der pehle mere ek dost ne mujh se aaj ke din par "ek she'r" kii farmaaish kii.  maiN ne JE kaa jo she'r unheN sunaaya, vohi aap bhi sun liijiye:

vafaa, iKhlaas, qurbaanii, muhabbat
ab in lafzoN ka pichhaa kyuN kareN ham?

My friend was like "what?????". I am sure you will appreciate this one more! :-))

Disillusioned, but not completely,
________Zoya :)

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:

<snip>

maiN ne JE kaa jo she'r unheN sunaaya, vohi aap bhi sun liijiye: 
> 
> vafaa, iKhlaas, qurbaanii, muhabbat 
> ab in lafzoN ka pichhaa kyuN kareN ham? 
> 
> My friend was like "what?????". I am sure you will appreciate this one more! :-)) 
> 
> Disillusioned, but not completely, 
> ________Zoya :)

Zoya sahiba,

Valentine's Day par Jaun Eliya ko quote karna ... not good :) kyuN ki what little I have read of his works, it has mostly been about heartbreak. Check out his Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaun_Elia says (not that I believe everything that is stated there), his poetry is known for "unending pain of separation" :)  You know I am joking, right? :)

Regarding andesha-e-ruswaii ... 

fahm-O-idraak se balaa hai ye andaaz-e-wafaa
tum kO andesha-e-ruswaii bhi hai, pyar bhi hai 

Dinesh