🚀 go-pugleaf

"Jamil Ahmad" <jamilahmad@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9d8ed87c.0107110314.46292b3@posting.google.com...
> Vijay Sahib, many thanks for your comments.
> The original Farsi ghazal by Ghalib, which has been translated by Sufi
> Tabassum and sung by Ghulam Ali, and also by Mehdi Hassan (if I recall
> correctly), follows.  I don't know which ash'aar have been translated
> or sung, so if you could post the Punjabi version, I would appreciate
> it.

Jamil Sahib:

I can't begin to describe how happy you have made me! I have been looking
for this ghazal since late seventies. I came home to your post and voila!
here it is. I feel like (allow me a bit of hyperbole:-))

jaise seharaaoN meN haule se chale ba'ade nasiim
jaise biimaar ko be-vajah qaraar aa jae

Here is the ghazal in Panjabi. I only have four asha'ar (with the matlaa)
and would appreciate your comments:

mere shauq da nahiiN aitbaar teN nuuN aa jaa vekh meraa intezaar aa jaa
aiNveN laRan b'haane labhnaa iiN, kii tuu sochanaa iiN sitamgaar aa jaa

bhaaveN hij'r te bhaaveN visaal hove, vakkho vakkh dohaan diiaaN lazttaN neN
mere sohniaa jaa tuu hzaar vaarii, aa jaa piaaria te lakkh vaar aa jaa

eh rivaaz ai masjidaaN maNdiraaN da, othe hastiiaaN te Khud parastiiaaN neN
maiKhaane vicch mastiiaaN ii mastiiaaN neN, hosh kar ban ke hoshiaar aa jaa

tuu saada te tera dil saadaa, teN nuuN aiNveN raqiib kuraah paaia
je tuuN mere janaaze te nahiiN aaia, raah takdaa ii terii m'zaar aa jaa

sukhii vassna je tuuN chauhnaa eN, mere ghaliba ais j'haan andar
aa jaa riNdaaN dii bazam vicch aa beh jaa, aithe baithde neN Khaaksaar aa
jaa

With much thanks and best regards,

Vijay Kumar

"Vijay Kumar" <kumarv@home.com> wrote in message news:<qC937.456857$eK2.94622030@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>...

> Jamil Sahib:
>
> I can't begin to describe how happy you have made me! I have been looking
> for this ghazal since late seventies. I came home to your post and voila!
> here it is. I feel like (allow me a bit of hyperbole:-))
>
> jaise seharaaoN meN haule se chale ba'ade nasiim
> jaise biimaar ko be-vajah qaraar aa jae

Vijay Sahib,
When talking of the effect that Ghalib's poetry has on
"sukhan-shinaasaaN", it is difficult to avoid hyperbole, and what
better way to express it than in the words of that other master,
Faiz!!!

Thanks so much for the Panjabi ghazal.  It has two extra ash'aar that
were not there in what I had posted, so I looked for them and
fortunately did find them.

First of all, I must correct an error I had made in my earlier
posting.  The first line had the word "baavar" (belive) missing.  The
correct she'r is:

za man gar-at na-bavad BAAVAR intezaar be'aa
bahaana jooe mabaash va sateeza-kaar be'aa
       [agar maire intizaar ka yaqeen nahin karta to aa ja
        bahaane na banaa aur jaldi aa ja]
> mere shauq da nahiiN aitbaar teN nuuN aa jaa vekh meraa intezaar aa jaa
> aiNveN laRan b'haane labhnaa iiN, kii tuu sochanaa iiN sitamgaar aa jaa

The translation of this she'r seems to be a bit free.
 -------------------------------

The missing ash'aar are:
to tifl-e-saadah-dil o ham-nashin bad-aamooz-ast
janaaza gar na-tavaan deed, bar mazaar be'aa

    [tu saad-dil bachcha hai aur tera saathi buri baat sikhaata hai
    agar janaaza nahiN dekha to mazaar par aa]
> tuu saada te tera dil saadaa, teN nuuN aiNveN raqiib kuraah paaia
> je tuuN mere janaaze te nahiiN aaia, raah takdaa ii terii m'zaar aa jaa
----------------------------

ravaaj-e-soma'h-e-hastee-st zeenhaar ma-ro
mataa'e'maikadah mastee-st hushiyaar be'aa
     ['ibaadat-gaah ka ravaaj hastee (ego) hai, khabardaar mat ja
      maikade ki daulat mastee hai, samajhdaari kar, aa ja]

> eh ravaaj ai masjidaaN maNdiraaN da, othe hastiiaaN te Khud parastiiaaN neN
> maiKhaane vicch mastiiaaN ii mastiiaaN neN, hosh kar ban ke hoshiaar aa jaa
-----------------------
The translation is superb.  Except for a line or two, it is very
faithful to the original.  The behr in the translation is much longer
than in the original, but then the translator needed extra words to
faithfully express the ideas.
--------
Vijay Sahib, your long search for the Farsi ghazal just underscores an
irony.  Ghalib took great pride in his Farsi poetry as opposed to his
work in Urdu.  He has said:

Farsi been ta ba-beeni naqsh-haa'-e- rang rang
ba-guzar az majmoo'-e-Urdu keh be-rang-e-man ast
       [Farsi ko dekho ta keh ranga rang naqsh dekho
        maire Urdu ke majmoo'e ko chhoRo keh be-rang hai]

Muhammad Hussain Azad in Aab-e-Hayaat has dissmissively said something
to the effect; "Ghalib was primarily interested in writing poetry and
prose in Farsi, but since he has also published in Urdu, ... it is
necessary to mention him in this book."

As time passed, and Urdu-speaking population's knowledge of Farsi
declined, Ghalib's Persian works fell into obscurity.  If you walk
into any large bookstore in Pakistan, you will probably not find any
of Ghalib's Persian books. As for the Iranians, except for specialist
scholars, no one has even heard of Ghalib.  But there is comfort in
the fact that each new generation seems to appreciate Divan-e-Ghalib
more than the previous one.

Faqat

Jamil

> janaaza gar na-tavaan deed, bar mazaar be'aa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

janaab-e-Jamil Saahab,
as_salaam_o_'alaikum,

ummiid hai ki mizaaj-e-giraamii ba_Khair hoNge.

aap ne jo she'r uupar darj kiyaa hai use paRh kar yak_ba_yak mujhe yeh
misr'a yaad aa gayaa. mujhe yeh bhii nahiiN ma;luum ki yeh kis shaa'ir
ke kalaam se aKhaz_shuda hai, hattaa_ki is she'r kaa misr'a-e-awwal
bhii yaad nahiiN. jahaaN_tak, qayaas_o_gumaan ko daKhl haasil hai to
meraa Khayaal hai ki yeh she'r janaab-e-Amiir Khusrao Dehlvii [r.A.]
kaa hai. yeh misr'a bhii suNte [balki paRhte!] jaaiye:

ba janaaza gar ne-aaiim ba_mazaar Khowaahii aamad

[agar janaaze meN kisii 'uzr ke baa'is shirkat nahiiN kar sake to phir
mazaar par hii aa jaanaa!]

agar aapko is silsile se kuchh yaad ho yaa kuchh dast_yaab ho to
ba_raa(h)-e-mehr_baanii hameN bhii zaruur suNaaiye [yaa paRhvaaiye!]
gaa.

shukria.

faqat muKhlis,

Aslam "Sahbaa"

aslam_sahbaa@my-deja.com (Aslam  Sahbaa) wrote in message news:<2ad8016d.0107121529.dcf6be7@posting.google.com>...
> > janaaza gar na-tavaan deed, bar mazaar be'aa
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> janaab-e-Jamil Saahab,
> as_salaam_o_'alaikum,
>
> ummiid hai ki mizaaj-e-giraamii ba_Khair hoNge.
>
> aap ne jo she'r uupar darj kiyaa hai use paRh kar yak_ba_yak mujhe yeh
> misr'a yaad aa gayaa. mujhe yeh bhii nahiiN ma;luum ki yeh kis shaa'ir
> ke kalaam se aKhaz_shuda hai, hattaa_ki is she'r kaa misr'a-e-awwal
> bhii yaad nahiiN. jahaaN_tak, qayaas_o_gumaan ko daKhl haasil hai to
> meraa Khayaal hai ki yeh she'r janaab-e-Amiir Khusrao Dehlvii [r.A.]
> kaa hai. yeh misr'a bhii suNte [balki paRhte!] jaaiye:
>
> ba janaaza gar ne-aaiim ba_mazaar Khowaahii aamad
>
> [agar janaaze meN kisii 'uzr ke baa'is shirkat nahiiN kar sake to phir
> mazaar par hii aa jaanaa!]
>
> agar aapko is silsile se kuchh yaad ho yaa kuchh dast_yaab ho to
> ba_raa(h)-e-mehr_baanii hameN bhii zaruur suNaaiye [yaa paRhvaaiye!]
> gaa.
>
> shukria.
>
> faqat muKhlis,
>
> Aslam "Sahbaa"

Aslam Sahib
haal-e-shuma?
aap ne jo misra' likha hai, Amir Khusro ki hi aik khoobsoorat ghazal
ka hai.  saari ghazal to mujhey yaad nahin, jo kuchh yaad hai likhe
deta hooN.  umeed hai aap lutf-andoz hoN ge.

khabar-am raseed im-shab keh nigaar kha(w)ahi aamad
sar-e-man fiddaa-e-raahe keh savaar kha(w)ahi aamad

      [mujhey khabar mili hai keh mehboob, tu aaye ga
       sar-e-man fidaa-e-raahe keh savaar, tu aaey ga]

hameh aahuaan-e-sahraa sar-e-khud nihaad bar kaf
ba umeed-e-aan keh roze ba-shikaar kha(w)ahi aamad
      [sahraa ke sab hiran apna sar hatheli men liye huey haiN
       is ummeed meN keh tu shikaar ko aaye ga]

ba-lab-am raseed jaan-am, to be-aa keh zindeh maana-am
pas azaan keh man na maan-am ba-cheh kaar kha(w)ahi aamad

      [maiN jaaN-ba-lab hooN (I'm near death), tu aa keh zinda rahooN
       maire marne ke ba'd aaya to kis kaam aaye ga]

kashishe keh ishq daarad, na-guzaarad-at badeensaan
ba-janaaza gar na-aa'ee ba-mazaar kha(w)ahi aamad

       [ishq meN jo kashish hai, vuh tujhey yooN nahiN chhoRe gi
        agar janaaze par nahiN aaya, to mazaar par to aaye ga]
--------------
is ghazal ke baaqi ash'aar aur maqtaa mujhey yaad nahiN.  agar kisi ko
ma'loom hoN to zaroor likhiye ga.

iraadatmand
Jamil

"Jamil Ahmad" <jamilahmad@my-deja.com> wrote in message >
> Thanks so much for the Panjabi ghazal.  It has two extra ash'aar that
> were not there in what I had posted, so I looked for them and
> fortunately did find them.
>

Thanks once again Jamil Sahib for completing the ghazal. It is a tremendous
feeling to read the original of something I had adored in Panjabi for so
long!

> The translation is superb.  Except for a line or two, it is very
> faithful to the original.  The behr in the translation is much longer
> than in the original, but then the translator needed extra words to
> faithfully express the ideas.

I completely agree Jamil Sahib. Translation has to produce an effect, a mood
in another language, that maynot be slavish to the word, but has to be true
to the spirit. In this sense, Mustafa Tabbasum has done a truly wonderful
job. He has produced close to how this ghazal would have appeared if it was
conceived in Panjabi. i.e. IMHO of course.
> --------

> Vijay Sahib, your long search for the Farsi ghazal just underscores an
> irony.  Ghalib took great pride in his Farsi poetry as opposed to his
> work in Urdu.  He has said:
>
> Farsi been ta ba-beeni naqsh-haa'-e- rang rang
> ba-guzar az majmoo'-e-Urdu keh be-rang-e-man ast
>        [Farsi ko dekho ta keh ranga rang naqsh dekho
>         maire Urdu ke majmoo'e ko chhoRo keh be-rang hai]

Later, though, it seems Ghalib did commit himself more exclusively to Urdu.
Miir also is known to have favored writing poetry in reKhta to Faarsii. In
Lucknow, he apparently once declined to recite his poetry stating that
locals would not appreciate his poetry. When someone pointed out that Miir
Sahib, we are all well versed in Faarsi (not to say Urdu), Miir supposed to
have replied sarcasticaly something to the effect: "exactly my point".

Ghalib, of course, as you will well know, also wrote:

jo yeh kahe ke reKhta kyuuN ki ho rashk-e-faarsii
gufta-e-ghalib aik baar paRh kar use sunaa, ke yuuN!

I may be wrong on this account, but only Urdu poet who is respected in
Persia for his Faarsii shaairi is Allama Iqbal, more for his falsfa perhaps
than for the poetry itself. Then there are also the rumours that most of
Ghalib is a plagiarisation of Bedil. Maybe true, but what plagiarisation!!

I have gone a bit off topic but now that we know of your scholarship in
Faarsii, it will be intersting to hear your views.

With gratitude,

Vijay Kumar

> Aslam Sahib
> haal-e-shuma?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
janaab-e-Jamil Saahab,
as_salaam_o_'alaikum,

khuub_am! cheh taur_ii?
________________________________________________________________________________

> aap ne jo misra' likha hai, Amir Khusro ki hi aik khoobsoorat ghazal
> ka hai.  saari ghazal to mujhey yaad nahin, jo kuchh yaad hai likhe
> deta hooN.  umeed hai aap lutf-andoz hoN ge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jamil Saahab, aapkaa maiN mamnuun_o_mashkuur huuN ki aapne apne
qiimtii auqaat meN se chaNd pal nikaal kar hamaarii iltejaa ko puuraa
kiyaa. ek baar phir se shukria janaab. Hazrat Amiir Khusro [r.A.] kii
yeh Ghazal yaqiinan baRii Khuub_suurat hai. uNkaa jaisaa kamaal kisko
nasiib huaa.
________________________________________________________________________________

aapne jo is Ghazal ke ash'aar pesh kiye haiN, uske silsile se chaNd
baateN 'arz karnaa chaahuuNgaa aur ummiid-e-qawii hai ki aap iskaa
buraa nahiiN manaayeNge. maiN she'r_ba_she'r apnii haqiir sii raaye
pesh kar rahaa huuN.
________________________________________________________________________________
> khabar-am raseed im-shab keh nigaar kha(w)ahi aamad
> sar-e-man fiddaa-e-raahe keh savaar kha(w)ahi aamad
>
>       [mujhey khabar mili hai keh mehboob, tu aaye ga
>        sar-e-man fidaa-e-raahe keh savaar, tu aaey ga]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
merii haqiir raaye ke mutaabiq is she'r kaa tarjumah yuN honaa
chaahiye:

"mujh tak Khabar pahoNchii hai ki vo [mehbuub] dekhne ke liye [mujhe
ya kisi aur ko] aayegaa le_haazaa, maiN raah ko "tak" rahaa huuN ki
kab tu savaar [ghoRe pe] aayegaa.
________________________________________________________________________________

> hameh aahuaan-e-sahraa sar-e-khud nihaad bar kaf
> ba umeed-e-aan keh roze ba-shikaar kha(w)ahi aamad
>       [sahraa ke sab hiran apna sar hatheli men liye huey haiN
>        is ummeed meN keh tu shikaar ko aaye ga]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is she'r ke duusre misr'e meN ek ma'muulii sii kamii rah gaii hai. is
misr'a ko yuN honaa chaahiye:

hamah aahuuaan-e-sahraa sar-e-Khud nihaadah bar kaf
ba_ummiid-e-aaN ki roze ba_shikaar Khowaahii aamad

tarjume meN agar thoRii sii tabdiilii waq'e kar deN to bahtar rahegaa,
ya'nii:

sahraa ke saare hiran [aashiq] apne saroN [jaan] ko apnii hathelii par
rakh kar [be_Khawf_o_Khatar] ghuum rahe haiN sirf is ummiid par ke
kisii roz to tu [ma'shuuq] shikaar karne kii Gharaz se aa niklegaa.
________________________________________________________________________________

> ba-lab-am raseed jaan-am, to be-aa keh zindeh maana-am
> pas azaan keh man na maan-am ba-cheh kaar kha(w)ahi aamad
>
>       [maiN jaaN-ba-lab hooN (I'm near death), tu aa keh zinda rahooN
>        maire marne ke ba'd aaya to kis kaam aaye ga]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yahaaN par bhii thoRii sii vaisii hii kamii rah gaii hai. is she'r ko
yuuN honaa chaahiye:

ba_lab_am rasiidah jaanam, tu be_aa ki ziNdaa maan_am
pas az_aaN ki man na maan_am, ba_cheh_kaar Khowaahii aamad

is she'r kaa tarjumah agar aisaa kiyaa jaaye to kaisaa rahegaa:

merii jaan mere hoNToN tak [muNh] ko aaii huii hai [nez'a kaa 'aalam],
ab to tu aa jaa ki maiN abhi ziNda huuN.
bas, jab maiN hii nahiiN rahuuNgaa to tu phir kis_vaaste aayegaa?
________________________________________________________________________________

> kashishe keh ishq daarad, na-guzaarad-at badeensaan
> ba-janaaza gar na-aa'ee ba-mazaar kha(w)ahi aamad
>
>        [ishq meN jo kashish hai, vuh tujhey yooN nahiN chhoRe gi
>         agar janaaze par nahiN aaya, to mazaar par to aaye ga]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is sher'r ko agar yuN likheN to behtar baashad:

kashishe ki 'ishq daarad, na guzaardat badeesaaN [?]
ba_janaaza gar ne_yaaii, ba_mazaar Khowaahii aamad

aap jaisaa ki jaante hii haiN ki lafz-e-"ne_yaaii" dar haqiiqat "na
aaii" hai magar usuul-e-zabaan kii ruu se farf-e-"chhoTii he" agar
harf-e-"alif" se pahle hai to vo harf-e-"alif" harf-e-"ye" meN
mutabaddil ho jaataa hai.

ek baat aap se puuchhnii thii aur vo yeh ki pahle misr'e meN jo
lafz-e-"badeesaaN" aayaa hai, uskke ma'na kyaa haiN?

lafz-e-guzaardat meN harf-e-izaafii ya'nii "te" 'alaamatii hai 'Arbii
qaaide se jo ko "mu'annas ['aurat]" ke liye iste'maal hotaa hai
le_haazaa yeh lafz yuN hai:

guzaarad + harf-e-"te" = guzaarad_at = guzaaradat

hazrat Amiir Khusro [r.A.] ne apnii ek aur Ghazal meN is harf-e-"te"
kaa iste'maal kiyaa hai aur vo lafz thaa "vasl_at" ba_ma'ni "tere
[female] vasl meN". yeh lafz urdu shaa'irii meN bhii bahot iste'maal
hotaa hai
________________________________________________________________________________

Jamil Saahab, aapse guzaarish hai ki aap merii in baatoN kaa buraa na
maanaaiyegaa. yeh mahaz "discussion" ke taur par raqm kiyaa. tanqiis
maqsuud nahiiN. aapkaa shukria ki aapne is Ghazal ko yahaaN chaspaaN
kiyaa.

faqat muKhlis,

Aslam "Sahbaa"

aslam_sahbaa@my-deja.com (Aslam  Sahbaa) wrote in message news:<2ad8016d.0107131122.726e9aac@posting.google.com>...
Janab aslam Sahib, Salaam.
Aap ka shukriya keh aap ne mairi post ki ghazal meN islaah ki.
chooNkeh maiN ne faqat hafize se ghazal likhi thi, mumkin hai is meN
aur bhi kai ghalatiaaN hoN.  Baqi raha, aap ka is baat ka tazkara
karna keh maiN islaah ko naagavaar na samjhooN to khaatir jama' rahe,
keh mujhe bahut khushi hogi agar meri kisi ghalati ki aap ya koi aur
shakhs tasheyih kare ga.  agar aisa na kareN to ham seekheN ge kaise?
Main ne Farsi ki ta'leem kisi maktab ya madrase meN  haasil li, balkeh
az-khud, aur aap jaise mehbaanoN se tabaadala-e-khayaalaat kar ke
ma'mooli si sudh budh haasil ki hai.

aap ki ki hui islaah par maira tabsara:

> > khabar-am raseed im-shab keh nigaar kha(w)ahi aamad
> > sar-e-man fiddaa-e-raahe keh savaar kha(w)ahi aamad
> >
> >       [mujhey khabar mili hai keh mehboob, tu aaye ga
> >        sar-e-man fidaa-e-raahe keh savaar, tu aaey ga]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> merii haqiir raaye ke mutaabiq is she'r kaa tarjumah yuN honaa
> chaahiye:
>
> "mujh tak Khabar pahoNchii hai ki vo [mehbuub] dekhne ke liye [mujhe
> ya kisi aur ko] aayegaa le_haazaa, maiN raah ko "tak" rahaa huuN ki
> kab tu savaar [ghoRe pe] aayegaa.

yeh pehla misra' maire liye hamesha mu'amma tha.  aap ke likhe hue
ma'ni se tazabzub zara kam hua hai, magar phir bhi is meN mushkil pesh
aa rahi hai. seegha "kha(w)ahi aamad" ka ma'ni hai, tu aaye ga, jaise
kha(w)aham aamad ka ma'ni hua "maiN aa'ooN ga". aap ne tarjuma kia hai
"aayega".  Kia yah zaroorat-e-she'ri (or poetic license) thi?

i> > hameh aahuaan-e-sahraa sar-e-khud nihaad bar kaf
> > ba umeed-e-aan keh roze ba-shikaar kha(w)ahi aamad
> >       [sahraa ke sab hiran apna sar hatheli men liye huey haiN
> >        is ummeed meN keh tu shikaar ko aaye ga]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> is she'r ke duusre misr'e meN ek ma'muulii sii kamii rah gaii hai. is
> misr'a ko yuN honaa chaahiye:
>
> hamah aahuuaan-e-sahraa sar-e-Khud nihaadah bar kaf
> ba_ummiid-e-aaN ki roze ba_shikaar Khowaahii aamad
>
> tarjume meN agar thoRii sii tabdiilii waq'e kar deN to bahtar rahegaa,
> ya'nii:
>
> sahraa ke saare hiran [aashiq] apne saroN [jaan] ko apnii hathelii par
> rakh kar [be_Khawf_o_Khatar] ghuum rahe haiN sirf is ummiid par ke
> kisii roz to tu [ma'shuuq] shikaar karne kii Gharaz se aa niklegaa.

aap ka diya hua tarjuma zayaada jaame' hai.  maiN ne bas lafzi tarjume
par iktifaa kia tha.  mere likhe hue misre men jis kami ka aap ne zikr
kia hai, kia vuh ummeed meN "meem" ki tashdeed ka hai?
ba-raah-e-karam zara vahaahat keejiye .

>
> > ba-lab-am raseed jaan-am, to be-aa keh zindeh maana-am
> > pas azaan keh man na maan-am ba-cheh kaar kha(w)ahi aamad
> >
> >       [maiN jaaN-ba-lab hooN (I'm near death), tu aa keh zinda rahooN
> >        maire marne ke ba'd aaya to kis kaam aaye ga]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> yahaaN par bhii thoRii sii vaisii hii kamii rah gaii hai. is she'r ko
> yuuN honaa chaahiye:
>
> ba_lab_am rasiidah jaanam, tu be_aa ki ziNdaa maan_am
> pas az_aaN ki man na maan_am, ba_cheh_kaar Khowaahii aamad
>
> is she'r kaa tarjumah agar aisaa kiyaa jaaye to kaisaa rahegaa:
>
> merii jaan mere hoNToN tak [muNh] ko aaii huii hai [nez'a kaa 'aalam],
> ab to tu aa jaa ki maiN abhi ziNda huuN.
> bas, jab maiN hii nahiiN rahuuNgaa to tu phir kis_vaaste aayegaa?

yahaaN aap ke aur maire tarjume meN farq "zinda rahooN" aur "zinda
hooN" ka hai. aap ka tarjuma zayaada munaasib hai.

> > kashishe keh ishq daarad, na-guzaarad-at badeensaan
> > ba-janaaza gar na-aa'ee ba-mazaar kha(w)ahi aamad
> >
> >        [ishq meN jo kashish hai, vuh tujhey yooN nahiN chhoRe gi
> >         agar janaaze par nahiN aaya, to mazaar par to aaye ga]
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> is sher'r ko agar yuN likheN to behtar baashad:
>
> kashishe ki 'ishq daarad, na guzaardat badeesaaN [?]
> ba_janaaza gar ne_yaaii, ba_mazaar Khowaahii aamad

bahut behtar.

> ek baat aap se puuchhnii thii aur vo yeh ki pahle misr'e meN jo
> lafz-e-"badeesaaN" aayaa hai, uskke ma'na kyaa haiN?
 badeensaan = (yooN).  ba-een-saan meN "daal" ravaani ke liye laga
diya jaata hai.
> lafz-e-guzaardat meN harf-e-izaafii ya'nii "te" 'alaamatii hai 'Arbii
> qaaide se jo ko "mu'annas ['aurat]" ke liye iste'maal hotaa hai
> le_haazaa yeh lafz yuN hai:
>
> guzaarad + harf-e-"te" = guzaarad_at = guzaaradat
>
> hazrat Amiir Khusro [r.A.] ne apnii ek aur Ghazal meN is harf-e-"te"
> kaa iste'maal kiyaa hai aur vo lafz thaa "vasl_at" ba_ma'ni "tere
> [female] vasl meN". yeh lafz urdu shaa'irii meN bhii bahot iste'maal
> hotaa hai

mairi naacheez raa'e meN yeh "-at" arabi ka (referring to third person
feminine) nahiN, balkeh Farsi ka (tujhe, tera) hai.  guzaarad = chhoRe
ga (guzaashtan, masdar se). guzaarad-am = mujhe chhoRe ga, guzaarad-at
= tujhey chhoRe ga, vaghaira vaghaira.
vasl-at, ya vasal-at (vuh pohNchi) ki aur baat hai, chooNkeh vasl
arabi ka lafz hai, vasal-at kehna jaa'iz hai. magar aap arabi aur
farsi ko makhloot nahiN kar sakte.  guzarad farsi ka lafz hai, arabi
ka nahiN.  ho bhi nahiN sakta, kioNkeh arabi meN "gaaf" hai hi nahiN.
Is liye aap is ke saath arabi ki tarkeeb nahiN laga sakte, jaise aap
Urdu men ghar-am (maira ghar) nahiN keh sakte, magar khaana-am darust
hai.

ab aik do lafz hijje ke baare meN bhi likh dooN.  Pehle to yeh
poochhooN ga keh aap ki post men - aur _ men (ya'ni hyphen aur
underscore meN) kia farq hai?

MaiN ne jo kha(w)ahi ko yooN ikha hai, vuh is liye ke "vav" (w) silent
hai.  Is ke 'ilaavah, jahaan tak mujhe 'ilm hai, farsi meN "noon
ghunna" (nasal N) aur aam noon aik hi tarah likha jaata hai, nuqte ke
saath. is liye main ne donoN ko "n" hi likha hai.

Iraatatmand

Jamil

iraadatmand

On Thursday, 12 July 2001 at 08:18:12 UTC-7, Jamil Ahmad wrote:
> "Vijay Kumar" <kumarv@home.com> wrote in message news:<qC937.456857$eK2.94622030@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>...
> > Jamil Sahib:
> > 
> > I can't begin to describe how happy you have made me! I have been looking
> > for this ghazal since late seventies. I came home to your post and voila!
> > here it is. I feel like (allow me a bit of hyperbole:-))
> > 
> > jaise seharaaoN meN haule se chale ba'ade nasiim
> > jaise biimaar ko be-vajah qaraar aa jae
> Vijay Sahib,
> When talking of the effect that Ghalib's poetry has on
> "sukhan-shinaasaaN", it is difficult to avoid hyperbole, and what
> better way to express it than in the words of that other master,
> Faiz!!!
> Thanks so much for the Panjabi ghazal. It has two extra ash'aar that
> were not there in what I had posted, so I looked for them and
> fortunately did find them.
> First of all, I must correct an error I had made in my earlier
> posting. The first line had the word "baavar" (belive) missing. The
> correct she'r is:
> za man gar-at na-bavad BAAVAR intezaar be'aa
> bahaana jooe mabaash va sateeza-kaar be'aa
> [agar maire intizaar ka yaqeen nahin karta to aa ja
> bahaane na banaa aur jaldi aa ja]
> > mere shauq da nahiiN aitbaar teN nuuN aa jaa vekh meraa intezaar aa jaa
> > aiNveN laRan b'haane labhnaa iiN, kii tuu sochanaa iiN sitamgaar aa jaa
> The translation of this she'r seems to be a bit free.
> -------------------------------
> The missing ash'aar are:
> to tifl-e-saadah-dil o ham-nashin bad-aamooz-ast
> janaaza gar na-tavaan deed, bar mazaar be'aa
> [tu saad-dil bachcha hai aur tera saathi buri baat sikhaata hai
> agar janaaza nahiN dekha to mazaar par aa]
> > tuu saada te tera dil saadaa, teN nuuN aiNveN raqiib kuraah paaia
> > je tuuN mere janaaze te nahiiN aaia, raah takdaa ii terii m'zaar aa jaa
> ----------------------------
> ravaaj-e-soma'h-e-hastee-st zeenhaar ma-ro
> mataa'e'maikadah mastee-st hushiyaar be'aa
> ['ibaadat-gaah ka ravaaj hastee (ego) hai, khabardaar mat ja
> maikade ki daulat mastee hai, samajhdaari kar, aa ja]
> > eh ravaaj ai masjidaaN maNdiraaN da, othe hastiiaaN te Khud parastiiaaN neN
> > maiKhaane vicch mastiiaaN ii mastiiaaN neN, hosh kar ban ke hoshiaar aa jaa
> -----------------------
> The translation is superb. Except for a line or two, it is very
> faithful to the original. The behr in the translation is much longer
> than in the original, but then the translator needed extra words to
> faithfully express the ideas.
> --------
> Vijay Sahib, your long search for the Farsi ghazal just underscores an
> irony. Ghalib took great pride in his Farsi poetry as opposed to his
> work in Urdu. He has said:
> Farsi been ta ba-beeni naqsh-haa'-e- rang rang
> ba-guzar az majmoo'-e-Urdu keh be-rang-e-man ast
> [Farsi ko dekho ta keh ranga rang naqsh dekho
> maire Urdu ke majmoo'e ko chhoRo keh be-rang hai]
> Muhammad Hussain Azad in Aab-e-Hayaat has dissmissively said something
> to the effect; "Ghalib was primarily interested in writing poetry and
> prose in Farsi, but since he has also published in Urdu, ... it is
> necessary to mention him in this book."
> As time passed, and Urdu-speaking population's knowledge of Farsi
> declined, Ghalib's Persian works fell into obscurity. If you walk
> into any large bookstore in Pakistan, you will probably not find any
> of Ghalib's Persian books. As for the Iranians, except for specialist
> scholars, no one has even heard of Ghalib. But there is comfort in
> the fact that each new generation seems to appreciate Divan-e-Ghalib
> more than the previous one.
> Faqat
> Jamil

This message [looking for this from the late 70s and finally finding it after 30 years is so heart warming. The persian version provided by Jamil and the background is just incredible. This is a ghazal I like a lot but i did not understand all the nuances of it, or rather I like it more after reading the Persian version by Jamil. Thanks to both of you for searching for this and finding it for the searcher and providing us with such happiness.

On Friday, 29 September 2023 at 17:22:26 UTC+1, George Antony wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 July 2001 at 08:18:12 UTC-7, Jamil Ahmad wrote: 
> > "Vijay Kumar" <kum...@home.com> wrote in message news:<qC937.456857$eK2.94...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>... 
> > > Jamil Sahib: 
> > > 
> > > I can't begin to describe how happy you have made me! I have been looking 
> > > for this ghazal since late seventies. I came home to your post and voila! 
> > > here it is. I feel like (allow me a bit of hyperbole:-)) 
> > > 
> > > jaise seharaaoN meN haule se chale ba'ade nasiim 
> > > jaise biimaar ko be-vajah qaraar aa jae 
> > Vijay Sahib, 
> > When talking of the effect that Ghalib's poetry has on 
> > "sukhan-shinaasaaN", it is difficult to avoid hyperbole, and what 
> > better way to express it than in the words of that other master, 
> > Faiz!!! 
> > Thanks so much for the Panjabi ghazal. It has two extra ash'aar that 
> > were not there in what I had posted, so I looked for them and 
> > fortunately did find them. 
> > First of all, I must correct an error I had made in my earlier 
> > posting. The first line had the word "baavar" (belive) missing. The 
> > correct she'r is: 
> > za man gar-at na-bavad BAAVAR intezaar be'aa 
> > bahaana jooe mabaash va sateeza-kaar be'aa 
> > [agar maire intizaar ka yaqeen nahin karta to aa ja 
> > bahaane na banaa aur jaldi aa ja] 
> > > mere shauq da nahiiN aitbaar teN nuuN aa jaa vekh meraa intezaar aa jaa 
> > > aiNveN laRan b'haane labhnaa iiN, kii tuu sochanaa iiN sitamgaar aa jaa 
> > The translation of this she'r seems to be a bit free. 
> > ------------------------------- 
> > The missing ash'aar are: 
> > to tifl-e-saadah-dil o ham-nashin bad-aamooz-ast 
> > janaaza gar na-tavaan deed, bar mazaar be'aa 
> > [tu saad-dil bachcha hai aur tera saathi buri baat sikhaata hai 
> > agar janaaza nahiN dekha to mazaar par aa] 
> > > tuu saada te tera dil saadaa, teN nuuN aiNveN raqiib kuraah paaia 
> > > je tuuN mere janaaze te nahiiN aaia, raah takdaa ii terii m'zaar aa jaa 
> > ---------------------------- 
> > ravaaj-e-soma'h-e-hastee-st zeenhaar ma-ro 
> > mataa'e'maikadah mastee-st hushiyaar be'aa 
> > ['ibaadat-gaah ka ravaaj hastee (ego) hai, khabardaar mat ja 
> > maikade ki daulat mastee hai, samajhdaari kar, aa ja] 
> > > eh ravaaj ai masjidaaN maNdiraaN da, othe hastiiaaN te Khud parastiiaaN neN 
> > > maiKhaane vicch mastiiaaN ii mastiiaaN neN, hosh kar ban ke hoshiaar aa jaa 
> > ----------------------- 
> > The translation is superb. Except for a line or two, it is very 
> > faithful to the original. The behr in the translation is much longer 
> > than in the original, but then the translator needed extra words to 
> > faithfully express the ideas. 
> > -------- 
> > Vijay Sahib, your long search for the Farsi ghazal just underscores an 
> > irony. Ghalib took great pride in his Farsi poetry as opposed to his 
> > work in Urdu. He has said: 
> > Farsi been ta ba-beeni naqsh-haa'-e- rang rang 
> > ba-guzar az majmoo'-e-Urdu keh be-rang-e-man ast 
> > [Farsi ko dekho ta keh ranga rang naqsh dekho 
> > maire Urdu ke majmoo'e ko chhoRo keh be-rang hai] 
> > Muhammad Hussain Azad in Aab-e-Hayaat has dissmissively said something 
> > to the effect; "Ghalib was primarily interested in writing poetry and 
> > prose in Farsi, but since he has also published in Urdu, ... it is 
> > necessary to mention him in this book." 
> > As time passed, and Urdu-speaking population's knowledge of Farsi 
> > declined, Ghalib's Persian works fell into obscurity. If you walk 
> > into any large bookstore in Pakistan, you will probably not find any 
> > of Ghalib's Persian books. As for the Iranians, except for specialist 
> > scholars, no one has even heard of Ghalib. But there is comfort in 
> > the fact that each new generation seems to appreciate Divan-e-Ghalib 
> > more than the previous one. 
> > Faqat 
> > Jamil
> This message [looking for this from the late 70s and finally finding it after 30 years is so heart warming. The persian version provided by Jamil and the background is just incredible. This is a ghazal I like a lot but i did not understand all the nuances of it, or rather I like it more after reading the Persian version by Jamil. Thanks to both of you for searching for this and finding it for the searcher and providing us with such happiness.

George Anthony saaHib aadaab.

If you are new to this forum, then please allow me the opportunity to welcome you with an attached request. The request is this. Please visit this forum wheneer you are able to and convey your thoughts here regarding Urdu poetry.

I wish I could convey your gratitude to Vijay and Jamil saaHibaan. The former hasn't participated here for some time now but, I am reliably informed, he is well. As for Jamil saaHib, I am sorry to inform you that he passed away about a year ago and he is sadly missed.

Here are links to two more threads on the topic of Sufi Tabassum's Punjabi translation of Ghalib's Persian Ghazal.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/zhXxaFFyWlg/m/5j91t7e1xxEJ

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/R-NH5ZikVPo/m/PXN8OyZ70ZYJ

Naseer