🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <4e1hl5$g...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
Christopher J. Watkins <Watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>have an excess of common sense.

If you wanted to draw a parallel between Lazarus Long and a Niven
character, I might lean more toward Lucas Garner (of the ARM series); he
has much the same temperament as Lazarus, and had he been the product of
a Howard-like breeding program, would probably be in similar physical
shape.  The other key similarity there would be that Garner, being
somewhere past age 150, is w-a-a-y off the far end of the longevity bell
curve (as are the Howards) since boosterspice (the key to longevity in
Louis Wu's time) hasn't yet been discovered.  In addition, Lazarus'
longevity can't adequately be attributed to the Howard program since he
was a third-generation product, which is way too early to be accounted
for by gene-pool improvement.  (RAH says it himself, that Lazarus' long
life is attributed to random mutation.)  Louis' long life, though, could
have been bought over the counter at the time _Ringworld_ was written
(earlier in Known Space, a Wunderlander mentions being unable to afford
boosterspice -- someone slap me because I've forgotten the name of the
story).

At any rate, it could be argued that a long-lived character worth writing
around would have to have at least a modicum of common sense in order to
survive long enough to be worth writing about.  I'm getting a bit
off-topic but I'd like to bring up RAH's Maureen Johnson -- I think he
tried to duplicate the success and appeal Lazarus had with readers and
failed: partly because coming up with a 200-year-old woman in the SECOND
generation of the Howard program is simply ludicrous, but also because I
don't think she had anywhere near the sensibility that her son Lazarus
had, and that it was clear that Maureen had plenty of outside assistance
-- most of it from Lazarus! -- to survive as long as she did.

The key point, however, is that it was not *necessary* for Louis Wu to be
extraordinarily long-lived (either in Known Space terms or compared to our
current lifespans), except perhaps to collect enough friends to be able to
have that round-the-world birthday party.  Boosterspice might still be
useful strategically (when you get to _Ringworld Engineers_, you'll find
out what the kzinti version could do to their culture), but isn't at all
necessary to permit Louis Wu to be the Grand Galactic Tourist.


--
Don Piven    | If you meet a beautiful woman wearing skintight, clingy
Chicago IL   | lycra, and one of the first five words out of your mouth
d...@suba.com | is "Campagnolo" . . . . . you might be a cyclist.

Watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Christopher J. Watkins) wrote:

>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>have an excess of common sense.

That's pretty much true for all of us over 200 years of age
who think that continuing to live is a worthwhile goal.  ;-)

The wisdom and common sense help you get there, the lost love
you acquire along the way, and the sex drive keeps you going.

Thus Christopher J. Watkins spake unto us:

>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>have an excess of common sense.

The biggest difference is Louis Wu is a niceish sort of fellow (don't
bother him when he's got the droud plugged in) and Lazarus Long is a
git (IMHO)


Barny Shergold
Personal - Barny....@dial.pipex.com           "A chicken is an egg's way of
Business - ba...@highway.co.uk                      making more eggs"
Web - http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/el80

In article <4e3gem$2...@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com>,
Robin E. Baylor <bay...@lmsc.lockheed.com> wrote:
>Matt Hickman (rrs...@ibm.net) wrote:
>: Niven could write a story with  Lucas, Gil, Beowulf and Louis all alive and together in one
>: room. 8-)
>:
>I find this unlikely, in light of the "Crashlander" anthology.
..
>It seems blatent that Beowulf Shaeffer's "adopted" son Louis is
>meant to be Louis Wu. The names & times match. Yet in "Ringworld"
>Louis either never mentioned Beowulf, or talked of him as a historic
>figure. Things looked pretty dismal for Shaeffer at the end of
>Crashlander. If he had survived, it looked like he was planning to
>raise 'his' children by Sharon and Carlos Wu ANYWHERE but Earth.
>Yet Louis is a flatlander. Case closed.

Louis is a flatlander *at the start of _Ringworld_*.  Also, he was born
on Earth.  But:

Didn't Nessus mention that

    ". . . you have lived on each of the worlds of Human Space long
     enough to be known as a native" ?

Wasn't there a passing mention of his time on Home in particular? (Most
Earthlike of the early colony worlds, btw - no funny Jinxian/Crashlander
differences in physical appearance)

And didn't Carlos Wu take the kids off to Home, while Sharol and Beowulf
stayed behind on the other colony world (name forgotten) ?

To me, it looks like Louis was raised by Carlos Wu, and either didn't know
about Beowulf's role or didn't know him well enough to regard him as more
than a distant friend.  Later, possibly after reaching adulthood, Louis
moved back to Earth.  And his wealth, at least in part, may have been
given by/inherited from Carlos Wu.

Beowulf may still be around somewhere.  But given the timeline for the
development of Boosterspice, I don't think Gil Hamilton or Lucas Garner
could still be alive by the time of _Ringworld_ unless they were willing
to trust the cryonics vaults.

This isn't entirely ruled out, though. If I *knew* I was dying and I *knew*
that cryonic revivals were possible, I'd gamble - what do you have to lose?
And Lucas Garner, in particular, had a *long* habit of living.  Be kind of
interesting to see him in good physical shape, wouldn't it?  Niven's
description of the power of his hands even in extreme age makes me see him
as muscular, almost proto-Jinxian.

And yes, I think Garner is probably the closest of Niven's characters to
Lazarus Long in general outlook.  Though Niven cites the changes others
have lived through (the kidnappers in _Grendel_, for instance), Garner is
the only one who really conveys the feeling of seasoned experience.
--
-----------------------+------------------------+------------------------------
Dana Crom    DoD #0679 | Silicon Graphics, Inc. |  Smile - let them *WONDER*
da...@morc.mfg.sgi.com | (415) 390-1449         |  what you've been up to . . .

In <4e30ji$2...@suba01.suba.com>, d...@suba.com (Don Piven) writes:
>
>If you wanted to draw a parallel between Lazarus Long and a Niven
>character, I might lean more toward Lucas Garner (of the ARM series); he
>has much the same temperament as Lazarus, and had he been the product of
>a Howard-like breeding program, would probably be in similar physical
>shape.  The other key similarity there would be that Garner, being
>somewhere past age 150, is w-a-a-y off the far end of the longevity bell
>curve (as are the Howards) since boosterspice (the key to longevity in
>Louis Wu's time) hasn't yet been discovered.

I don't think Lucas was ever killed off (if he was, someone please point this out)
Anyway, it is marginally possible that Lucas was still alive during Louis Wu's
time.

Has anyone noticed any references to Lucas Garner after boosterspice?  Theoretically
Niven could write a story with  Lucas, Gil, Beowulf and Louis all alive and together in one
room. 8-)

Matt Hickman     bh...@chevron.com   TANSTAAFL!
OS/2 Systems Specialist, Chevron Information Technologies Co.
     Life belongs to those who do not fear to lose it
                                             Robert A. Heinlein (1907 -1988)
                                             _Double Star_ (c. 1956)

Matt Hickman (rrs...@ibm.net) wrote:
: Niven could write a story with  Lucas, Gil, Beowulf and Louis all alive and together in one
: room. 8-)
:
I find this unlikely, in light of the "Crashlander" anthology.
Spoilers follow:


























It seems blatent that Beowulf Shaeffer's "adopted" son Louis is
meant to be Louis Wu. The names & times match. Yet in "Ringworld"
Louis either never mentioned Beowulf, or talked of him as a historic
figure. Things looked pretty dismal for Shaeffer at the end of
Crashlander. If he had survived, it looked like he was planning to
raise 'his' children by Sharon and Carlos Wu ANYWHERE but Earth.
Yet Louis is a flatlander. Case closed.

--
Beep if you love E-mail

REB

I must correct a statement of fact.  Maureen Johnson did NOT live to 200
without artificial intervention -- Maureen did not even reach her century
day.  She was snatched two weeks beforehand and sent straight into a 17
month rejuve program under the guidance of Dr. Ishtar.  Am I way far off
here?

Will

---
<hes...@hiwaay.net>

On 23 Jan 1996, Don Piven wrote:
<snip>
> At any rate, it could be argued that a long-lived character worth writing
> around would have to have at least a modicum of common sense in order to
> survive long enough to be worth writing about.  I'm getting a bit
> off-topic but I'd like to bring up RAH's Maureen Johnson -- I think he
> tried to duplicate the success and appeal Lazarus had with readers and
> failed: partly because coming up with a 200-year-old woman in the SECOND
> generation of the Howard program is simply ludicrous, but also because I
> don't think she had anywhere near the sensibility that her son Lazarus
> had, and that it was clear that Maureen had plenty of outside assistance
> -- most of it from Lazarus! -- to survive as long as she did.
<snip>

In article <4e30ji$2...@suba01.suba.com>, Don Piven <d...@suba.com> wrote:
>(earlier in Known Space, a Wunderlander mentions being unable to afford
>boosterspice -- someone slap me because I've forgotten the name of the
>story).

WHAP!  :-)

Wasn't that Richard Mann, in Relic of the Empire?

If not...someone slap me *twice* for remembering the wrong story!

-- Jim Lewis
   Center for EUV Astrophysics

Will Hester <hes...@fly.hiwaay.net> wrote:
>I must correct a statement of fact.  Maureen Johnson did NOT live to 200
>without artificial intervention -- Maureen did not even reach her century
>day.  She was snatched two weeks beforehand and sent straight into a 17
>month rejuve program under the guidance of Dr. Ishtar.  Am I way far off
>here?
>
>Will

       What you say sounds correct to me...though she might have lived a
natural 200-year span had she not crossed that steet in Albuquerque.

>
>On 23 Jan 1996, Don Piven wrote:
><snip>
>> At any rate, it could be argued that a long-lived character worth writing
>> around would have to have at least a modicum of common sense in order to
>> survive long enough to be worth writing about.  I'm getting a bit
>> off-topic but I'd like to bring up RAH's Maureen Johnson -- I think he
>> tried to duplicate the success and appeal Lazarus had with readers and
>> failed: partly because coming up with a 200-year-old woman in the SECOND
>> generation of the Howard program is simply ludicrous,

     It's not simply ludicrous if you suppose that LL got his mutated
longevity gene from her.

                                                         but also because
I
>> don't think she had anywhere near the sensibility that her son Lazarus
>> had, and that it was clear that Maureen had plenty of outside assistance
>> -- most of it from Lazarus! -- to survive as long as she did.
><snip>


     I always thought LL had gotten his sensibility from Ira Johnson
through her.  I would rate her as at least as sensible as her son.

--Beth

In <4e30ji$2...@suba01.suba.com>, d...@suba.com (Don Piven) wrote:

>  survive long enough to be worth writing about.  I'm getting a bit
>  off-topic but I'd like to bring up RAH's Maureen Johnson -- I think he
>  tried to duplicate the success and appeal Lazarus had with readers and
>  failed: partly because coming up with a 200-year-old woman in the SECOND
>  generation of the Howard program is simply ludicrous, but also because I
>  don't think she had anywhere near the sensibility that her son Lazarus
>  had, and that it was clear that Maureen had plenty of outside assistance
>  -- most of it from Lazarus! -- to survive as long as she did.

Maureen was kind of a continuation of RAH's other pragmatic heroines.
His heroes were curmudgeons - maybe that makes them more interesting.
:-)

LL got a lot of his home-spun wisdom from his grandfather, so Maureen
was a logical character to allow RAH to explore that.

He had also already established that Maureen lived through that period
that lead up to the Diaspora. There weren't really any other characters
available that were important enough to write a story around.

I'm just throwing out ideas here anyway. :-) I don't know what RAH's
health was like at that point. Did it affect his writing skills? Did he
simply wish to tie up loose threads? "And they lived happily ever
after..."

Beyond a certain point, an author has thrown out too many gadgets and
characters to allow a storyline to survive. Niven noted this. I don't
think that RAH could have done much more with the Future History series
in terms of things taking place after the approximate period of tNoTB.
Trouble with green BEMs? No problem, grab a company of Dorsai. Need to
sneak into the Beast's HQ? Just grab Jim di Griz and all of his gadgets.
:-)


--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Stuart Krivis         stu...@apk.net
[Team OS/2]           stuart...@pcohio.com
                      bp...@cleveland.freenet.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------

In <4e30ji$2...@suba01.suba.com>, d...@suba.com (Don Piven) writes:

>(earlier in Known Space, a Wunderlander mentions being unable to afford
>boosterspice -- someone slap me because I've forgotten the name of the
>story).

Rich Mann in "Relic of the Empire" - the one about stage trees.


Andy Williams                               <Team OS/2>
andy...@esslink.com  http://www.esslink.com/~andywlms/

bay...@lmsc.lockheed.com (Robin E. Baylor) writes:
> It seems blatent that Beowulf Shaeffer's "adopted" son Louis is
> meant to be Louis Wu. The names & times match. Yet in "Ringworld"
> Louis either never mentioned Beowulf, or talked of him as a historic
> figure.

Yes, that bothered me considerably while I was reading _Crashlander_.
The *only* reference to Shaeffer in _Ringworld_ is this (where Louis
first takes the Long Shot into hyperdrive):

	Louis kept his eyes away from the transparent floor. He had
	already stopped wondering why there were no covers for all that
	window space.  The sight of the Blind Spot had driven good men
	mad; but there were those who could take it.  The Long Shot's
	pilot must have been such a man.

As indeed Shaeffer was.  But it's crystal clear from this bit of
interior monologue that Louis has no clue who the Long Shot's original
pilot was.  If Louis was *raised* by that pilot, you'd sure think he'd
have heard the story somewhere along the line.  And if your foster dad
is the only human who's seen the Core explosion, you're damn sure not
going to forget the fact.

So I think either Niven forgot what he wrote in _Ringworld_ twenty-plus
years ago, or he just figures that Known Space is crawling with Wus
and this Louis Wu isn't intended to be the same as the other one.
(If the name were John Smith, you probably wouldn't assume that it had
to be the same person...)

Certainly Shaeffer's plans at the end of _Crashlander_ to go live in
a remote backwater do not bode well for the development of the
cosmopolitan Louis Wu we see in _Ringworld_.  So I'd vote for the kid
being a different Louis Wu.

The Louis Wu of _Ringworld_ could even be another son of Carlos Wu...
Carlos had unlimited parental rights, as I recall.

			regards, tom lane

Note trimming of followups.

In article <4e65fm$8...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Jim Lewis <j...@venice.cea.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>WHAP!  :-)
>
>Wasn't that Richard Mann, in Relic of the Empire?

Thanks, I needed that.  Yes, that was who I had in mind.  I knew the
character name; I was just brain-fading over the name of the story.

--
Don Piven    | If you meet a beautiful woman wearing skintight, clingy
Chicago IL   | lycra, and one of the first five words out of your mouth
d...@suba.com | is "Campagnolo" . . . . . you might be a cyclist.

In article <4e1hl5$g...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
Christopher J. Watkins <Watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>have an excess of common sense.

The similarities you cite are perfectly real, but I think the
important difference is that Niven does not devote most of the rest of
his career to detailing Wu's exploits.  (Heinlein took a long time
from the *first* appearance of LL to get trapped this way, but from
the *second* appearance in TEfL he rarely wrote a book without LL.)
--
David Dyer-Bennet	  d...@network.com, d...@terrabit.mn.org, d...@gw.ddb.com
SF cons: http://www.ddb.com/4th-Street, http://www.mnstf.org/minicon31
Me: http://www.ddb.com/~ddb (photos, Olympus photo eqpt. for sale, sf)

d...@gw.ddb.com (David Dyer-Bennet) wrote:

>In article <4e1hl5$g...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
>Christopher J. Watkins <Watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>>have an excess of common sense.

>The similarities you cite are perfectly real, but I think the
>important difference is that Niven does not devote most of the rest of
>his career to detailing Wu's exploits.  (Heinlein took a long time
>from the *first* appearance of LL to get trapped this way, but from
>the *second* appearance in TEfL he rarely wrote a book without LL.)

No offense, but I hadn't noticed an excess of either wisdom or common
sense in Louis Wu.

-nolan

In article <310535b...@news.apk.net>,
   stu...@apk.net (Stuart Krivis) wrote:
>In <4e30ji$2...@suba01.suba.com>, d...@suba.com (Don Piven) wrote:
>
>>  survive long enough to be worth writing about.  I'm getting a bit
>>  off-topic but I'd like to bring up RAH's Maureen Johnson -- I
think he
>>  tried to duplicate the success and appeal Lazarus had with readers
and
>>  failed: partly because coming up with a 200-year-old woman in the
SECOND
>>  generation of the Howard program is simply ludicrous...

SNIP,    SNIP...
**********************************
**********************************
Greetings;

I'm sorry, but I believe you might be wrong on this.   As it
is, perhaps one of the other readers who really pays attention
could verify or correct me.

I do not believe that Mama Maureen was 200-years from just
the second generation:  Lazarus was the  "mutation"...

Maureen lived her  "normal"  life-span...  lived through
WWI, the Depression, and, I believe WWII  --- and apparently
died, while an elderly lady, crossing the street, and hit
by a motor vehicle.   HOWEVER, there was a rather quick
substitution, a quick sleight of hand by her son and his
"daughters" and Dora...

Then, bringing Maureen back to their own time frame she
went through the rejuvenation process.

If my memory is wrong on this I do hope one of the readers
will correct me and clarify.

Thanks.

	---Dennis

nola...@twave.net (Nolan Jarvis) wrote:

>d...@gw.ddb.com (David Dyer-Bennet) wrote:

>>In article <4e1hl5$g...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
>>Christopher J. Watkins <Watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>>>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>>>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>>>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>>>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>>>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>>>have an excess of common sense.

>>The similarities you cite are perfectly real, but I think the
>>important difference is that Niven does not devote most of the rest of
>>his career to detailing Wu's exploits.  (Heinlein took a long time
>>from the *first* appearance of LL to get trapped this way, but from
>>the *second* appearance in TEfL he rarely wrote a book without LL.)

>No offense, but I hadn't noticed an excess of either wisdom or common
>sense in Louis Wu.

 . . . or in Lazarus Long.  Obnoxiousness as a survival skill, I
guess.

  It would not have surprised me to see LL show up in FRIDAY (maybe as
a rogue Olympian) or in JOB (as Jerry, or an associate thereof.)  Hm.
Doesn't Jerry strike you as very similar to LL?  With compassion?

Gary Greenbaum

In article <4ec5m6$f...@maureen.teleport.com>,
Dennis	M.  McDonnell <ma...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Maureen lived her  "normal"  life-span...  lived through
>WWI, the Depression, and, I believe WWII  --- and apparently
>died, while an elderly lady, crossing the street, and hit
>by a motor vehicle.   HOWEVER, there was a rather quick
>substitution, a quick sleight of hand by her son and his
>"daughters" and Dora...

    Actually by Gay Deceiver and her crew; Lazarus was stuck
in the bathroom at the time :-)
    Jon
    __@/

In article <4edif1$3...@watt.cs.unc.edu>,
   le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech) wrote:
>In article <4ec5m6$f...@maureen.teleport.com>,
>Dennis	M.  McDonnell <ma...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>Maureen lived her  "normal"  life-span...  lived through
>>WWI, the Depression, and, I believe WWII  --- and
apparently
>>died, while an elderly lady, crossing the street, and hit
>>by a motor vehicle.   HOWEVER, there was a rather quick
>>substitution, a quick sleight of hand by her son and his
>>"daughters" and Dora...
>
>    Actually by Gay Deceiver and her crew; Lazarus was
stuck
>in the bathroom at the time :-)
>    Jon
>    __@/
******************************
******************************
Thanks for mentioning this, as it has been awhile since
last I read the storyline of that book...  I did believe
I had the general outline down, but was certain there
were some specifics I was missing.

Again, thanks.
	---Dennis

In article <11a7cc$1014...@news.twave.net>, nola...@twave.net says...
>
>d...@gw.ddb.com (David Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>
>>In article <4e1hl5$g...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
>>Christopher J. Watkins <Watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>>>Okay this is going to be kind of shallow, but I am reading
>>>_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven for the first time and I swear
>>>Louis Wu is definately Niven's version of LL.  Anybody else
>>>get the same feeling?  They are both extaodinarily wise, old,
>>>have a good sex drive, have one very painful lost love, and
>>>have an excess of common sense.

<other ppls comments snipped to make way for more profound words from me>

I have just finished _Ringworld_ and I admit there are a number of
differences, but the similarities in character...the way Wu spoke,
his morals, his references to experience, his views on the opposite sex
all gave me the impression that he may have been influenced or modeled
after LL.  There may not have been any intent, but there is definately a
similarity in the characters.

--
Christopher J. Watkins
(watk...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu)