🚀 go-pugleaf

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:42068ece@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> PLEASE EXPLAIN
>
> If the bible is without error ....

> > Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
> > Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

Maybe a little hanky panky with the daughter of the wife?

Now many many years ago when I was twenty-three,
I was married to a widow who was pretty as can be.
This widow had a grown-up daughter who had hair of red.
My father fell in love with her and soon they too were wed.
This made my dad my son-in-law and really changed my life.
Now my daughter was my mother 'cause she was my father's wife.
And to complicate the matter even though it brought me joy,
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.
My little baby then became a brother-in-law to dad,
And so became my uncle though it made me very sad,
For if he were my uncle then that also made him brother
Of the widow's grown up daughter who, of course, was my stepmother.
Father's wife then had a son who kept them on the run,
And he became my grandchild for he was my daughter's son.
My wife is now my mother's mother and it makes me blue,
Because although she is my wife she's my grandmother too.
Now, if my wife is my grandmother I am her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild.
'Cause now I have become the strangest case you ever saw.
As husband of my grandmother I am my own grandpaw.

Oh I'm my own grandpaw.
I'm my own grandpaw.
It sounds funny I know, but it really is so,
Oh I'm my own grandpaw.
I'm my own grandpaw.
I'm my own grandpaw.

Mark said:

>PLEASE EXPLAIN
>
>If the bible is without error ....
>

Well for starters, if you believe that  it is your own mind and intellect
that discern God and assign Him parameters, then you have another God before
Him, and will not fathom the depths of His word or see His face.  You cannot
serve two masters, or have any other God before Him.

Secondly, the Bible is a Spiritual work discerned not by feats of our
intellect and reason.  As a Spiritual work, it magnifies whatever spirit is
in our heart as we approach it.  If we are looking for errors and for
reasons why it is not God's inerrent word, that is indicative of a dark
spirit in us and the mysteries of God's word will remain hidden.  One will
only find what is in their heart, reflected back at them.
Many of your reflections back from Scripture are exceedingly dark Mark.

I am not responding to your individual charges against God's word, because
over the years we have been there and done that many MANY times (and the
answers given you then, still hold true) . . . and it is clear that you have
no interest in seeing anything save that which you have already decided in
your own heart you will see.  The Christian walk is all about opening our
eyes and overcoming the darkness that is inherent in our hearts by laying
EVERYTHING (even our desire to intellectualize and rationalize everything to
our personal satisfaction), at the foot of the cross. It is a function of
just how much we are willing to trust God.  (The account of the Children of
Israel approaching the city of Jericho is an excellent example of this, seen
in the early chapters of Joshua . . . check out where they were in relation
to the Jordan River when all of the males of fighting age were incapacitated
by the covenant sign of circumcision)
And once this is done (a circumcision of our hearts and minds), the
mysteries of Gods' word will be revealed to us.  I know for many of us our
intellect and minds can get in the way.  We elevate it to the status of God
. . . even above God Almighty . . . thinking it is WE who discern and assign
God to His proper function by feats of our mind and intellect.  Such things
are exceedingly precious to us -- even as Isaac was precious to Abraham.
Yet when God required it of him, Abraham obeyed:  and learned a profound
lesson of God's provision.
If you lay something down before God, it will by no means be counted as
loss!


Mark, my friend.
So long as you are holding onto yourself and your own intellect and reason
as your personal God above the Lord Almighty, you will neither see Him nor
understand His word.  I would beseech you to leave those poisonous teachings
of the Jesus Seminar behind and seek God in Spirit and in Truth.  Those are
the only places where He may be found.

Yours in Christ,

Griz

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:42068ece@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> PLEASE EXPLAIN
>
> If the bible is without error ....
>
> > Then please could you explain in some way the following for us.
> > (RSV (Revised Standard Version) translation used).
> >
> > God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
> > God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19
> >
> >

In Gen 1:25-26, that is correct, in Gen 2:18-19 the animals which were
formed out of the earth were taken to be named the man, who was formed
formed out of the earth.


> > Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
> > Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
> >

Shelahs son was also called Shelah, or Shelahs nephew was called Shelah.
> >
> > Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
> > Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19
> >

Seven pairs of clean animals (Chickens, cows, sheep) one pair of unclean
animals, (pigs snakes spiders)
> >
> >
> > Terah's lifespan.
> > According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham
was
> > 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when
> > Abraham
> > was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as
stated
> > in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was
> > dead
> > when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen
> > 11:32
> > states he lived 205 years.
> >

Abram left his father and went to Haran, Then after his Terah died God sent
Abram to Cannan.  God told Abraham to make two separate journeys, one from
his fathers place to Egypt, the other from Egypt to Canan.  Abraham did not
go directly from His fathers place in Haran to Canan
 > >
> >
> > God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
> > God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb
> > 11:8,9,13
> >
> >
Abraham was living in modern day Beersheba (in Israel) after the birth of
Isaac (Gen 22), he was not at that location during the events of Gen 17
> >
> > Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
> > Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
> > Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from
> > Ephron
> > the Hittite - Gen 50:13
> > Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor -
Acts
> > 7:15-16
> >
> >
> >
> > The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
> > The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
> >
> >
> >
> > God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
> > God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8
> >
> >
> >
> > The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah,
Punon -
> > Num 33:37,38,41,42
> > The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron
dies),
> > Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7
> >
> >
> >
> > God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
> > God commands killing - Ex 32:27
> >
> >
> >
> > Solomon's reign.
> > Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to
David
> > beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530
> > years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon
> > became
> > king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign) = 570 years.
> > However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began
the
> > Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he
began
> > his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. Therefore there is a
> > contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years.
> >
> >
> >
> > Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6
> > Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
> > Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15
> >
> >
> >
> > David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
> > Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19
> >
> >

Two different Goliaths

> >
> > Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah
> > his
> > son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12
> > Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9
> >
> >
> >
> > Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
> > Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14
> >
> >
> >
> > Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6
> > Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9
> >
> >
> >
> > David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
> > David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4
> >
> >
> >
> > David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
> > David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18
> >
> >
> >
> > Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
> > God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1
> >
> >
> >
> > Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000
> > soldiers
> > in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5
> > Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in
> > Judah -
> > 2 Sam 24:9
> >
> >
> >
> > David buys the land for the altar from Ornan for 600 shekels of gold - 1
> > Chron 21:24-25
> > David buys the land for the altar from Araunah for 50 shekels - 2 Sam
> > 24:24
> >
> >
> >
> > Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25
> > Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26
> >
> >
> >
> > The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15
> > The Temple pillars were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15
> >
> >
> >
> > The molten sea held 2000 baths - 1 Kings 7:23,26
> > The molten sea held over 3000 baths - 2 Chron 4:2,5
> >
> >
> >
> > The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
> > The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19
> >
> >
> >
> > The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
> > The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18
> >
> >
> >
> > How the righteous suffer like the wicked - Ecc 9:2, Isaiah 57:1
> > How the righteous flourish - Psalm 92:12-13
> >
> >
> >
> > No ills befall the righteous - Proverbs 12:21
> > How the righteous suffer - Job 12:4,6, Hebrews 11:35-37
> >
> >
> >
> > The wicked will die prematurely and will suffer - Psalm 55:23, Proverbs
> > 10:27, Job 18:5,11,18,19
> > The wicked lifespan is long and they enjoy life - Psalm 73:3-5,12, Job
> > 21:7-9
> >
> >
> >
> > Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7
> > Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4
> >
> >
> >
> > Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1
Timothy
> > 5:23
> > Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 4:11
> >
> >
> >
> > Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began his reign - 2 Chron 36:9
> > Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign - 2 Kings 24:8
> >
> >
> >
> > The captain takes 5 men of the king's council - 2 Kings 25:19
> > The captain takes 7 men of the king's council - Jeremiah 52:25
> >
> >
> >
> > Baasha dies and his son Ela begins his reign over Israel - this was in
the
> > 26th year of king Asa of Judah - 1 Kings 16:6,8
> > In the 36th year of Asa's reign, Baasha attacks Judah - 2 Chron 16:1
> > NB. 2 Chron has Baasha still fighting 10 years after 1 Kings says he
died!
> >
> >
> >
> > The infancy narratives.
> > According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight
> > days
> > after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matt 2:14-23,
> > after
> > being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies;
even
> > on
> > returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark
> > 1:14,15,17
> > Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John
> > 1:28-29, 3:25-30
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus baptised - John 3:22
> > Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2
> >
> >
> >
> > The exorcism of Legion - being 2 men - Matt 8:28
> > The exorcism of Legion - being 1 man - Mark 5:1,2
> >
> >
> >
> > The healing on leaving Jericho was 1 blind man - Mark 10:46,47
> > The healing on leaving Jericho was 2 blind men - Matt 20:29,30
> >
> >
> >
> > No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
> > Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11
> >
> >
> >
> > Respect for parents taught - Exodus 20:12, Leviticus 19:3, Deuteronomy
> > 5:16,
> > Ephesians 6:1-2
> > Disrespect and rejection of parents taught - Matt 8:21- 22, 10:37,
19:29,
> > 23:9, Luke 12:51,53, 14:26
> >
> >
> >
> > People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40
> > People can only come to Jesus if God wills it - John 6:44
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus judges - John 5:22,27, 9:39, 2 Corinthians 5:10
> > Jesus does not judge - John 8:15, 12:47
> >
> >
> >
> > Christians to hate their brothers - - Luke 14:26
> > Whoever hates their brother cannot have eternal life - 1 John 3:15
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus refuses to give signs - Matt 12:38,39, Mark 8:12, Luke 11:29
> > Jesus did give signs - John 3:2, 20:30, Acts 2:22
> >
> >
> >
> > Man judged/saved by faith - John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 20:31, Acts 2:21,
> > 16:30,31, Rom 1:17, 5:1,9,11,18, 10:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 3:9, Eph 2:8,9
> > Man judged/saved by works and lifestyle - Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 24:12,
> > Matt
> > 7:21, 16:27, 19:16,17, 25:31- 46, Luke 14;13-14, John 5:29, Acts 10:35,
> > Rom
> > 2:6,7,9,10, 1 Cor 3:8
> >
> >
> >
> > One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
> > None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated bread in the time of
> > Abithar -
> > Mark 2:25,26
> > In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time of Ahimelech - 1 Sam
> > 21:1-6
> >
> >
> >
> > Disciples sent out not to wear sandals - Matt 10:9,10
> > Disciples sent out to wear sandals - Mark 6:8,9
> >
> >
> >
> > No man can retain the spirit after death - Eccles 8:8
> > Peter restores spirit of Tabitha after death - Acts 9:37,40
> >
> >
> >
> > Believers not to worry about providing for family - Luke 14:26,33,
> > 18:29,30
> > Believers must provide for family - 1 Timothy 5:8
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus did not bear witness to himself - John 5:31
> > Jesus did bear witness to himself - John 8:14,18
> >
> >
> >
> > The law/commandments to remain for ever - Matt 5:17-19, Luke 16:17
> > The law has ended - Romans 7:4, Eph 2:15, Col 2:14
> >
> >
> >
> > Simon and Andrew's home was in Capernaum - Mark 1:21,29
> > Simon and Andrew's home was in the same place as Philip's - Bethsaida -
> > John
> > 1:44
> >
> >
> >
> > God has given all things into Jesus' hands - John 3:35
> > God has not given all things into Jesus' hands - Matt 20:23, John 5:19
> >
> >
> >
> > Everyone sins - 2 Chronicles 6:36, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Rom 3:10,12,23
> > Believers do not sin - 1 John 3:6,9, 5:18
> >
> >
> >
> > The anointing and entry into Jerusalem.
> > Matt and Mark detail how Jesus rode into Jerusalem in Matt 20:1-13, Mark
> > 11:1-11. It was after this that he was anointed at Bethany - Matt
26:6-16,
> > Mark 14:3- 11. But in John he is anointed (12:1-8) and it is after this
> > that
> > he rides into Jerusalem (12:12-15).
> >
> >
> >
> > The Last Supper.
> > The Synoptics make it clear this was the Passover meal - Matt 26:19,
Mark
> > 14:16, Luke 22:13. However in John, the meal was held on the day before
> > the
> > Passover - 13:29, and states that even after the meal the Passover had
> > still
> > not begun - 18:28. Moreover, even after the trial, it was the
Preparation
> > day for the Passover - 19:31
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
> > Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter is warned he will deny Jesus after the last supper and having left
> > the
> > upper room - Matt 26:20-34, Mark 14:17-30
> > Peter is warned he will deny Jesus during the last supper before leaving
> > the
> > upper room - Luke 22:33-39, John 13:37-38/ 18:1
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus' trial before the sanhedrin was at night and in morning he was
taken
> > to Pilate - Matt 26:57-68, 27:1-2
> > Jesus' trial before the sanhedrin and being taken to Pilate was in the
> > morning - Luke 22:66-71, 23:1
> >
> >
> >
> > Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matt 27:32
> > Jesus carries his cross - John 19:17,18
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus was physically descended from David - Romans 1:1- 3.
> > The genealogies in Matt 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 both attempt to link
Jesus
> > with Joseph to give Jesus a place in the Davidic line (which was
necessary
> > for messiahship). However, if virgin born, Joseph would have had nothing
> > to
> > do with the conception and any physical/human descent would be through
> > Mary:
> > Jesus' only contact with humanity if virgin born. However, Luke 1:36
says
> > Mary was related to Elizabeth who was of the Aaronic line (Luke 1:5),
not
> > the Davidic line. Therefore, if virgin born, Jesus did not have Davidic
> > descent (a prerequisite for messiah- ship).
> >
> >
> >
> > Both robbers revile Jesus - Matt 27:44
> > Only one robber reviles Jesus and the other believes - Luke 23:41-43
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus tells the believing robber he will be with him in paradise that
> > day -
> > Luke 23:43
> > Jesus was in the grave following his death and did not ascend to
heaven -
> > Acts 2:24,31, John 20:17
> >
> >
> >
> > God forsakes Jesus - Mark 15:34
> > Jesus is inseparable from God - John 10:30, 14:10, 16:32
> >
> >
> >
> > The confirmation Jesus is dead.
> > In Mark 15:43-45, Joseph of Arimathea asks Pilate for Jesus' body, and
> > Pilate is unaware of whether he is dead; only after sending a centurion
> > and
> > receiving this confirmation does he allow Joseph to take the body.
However
> > in John 19:31-33,38, Pilate actually authorises the leg-breaking to
ensure
> > they have all died and then authorises Joseph to remove the body. NB.
Mark
> > 15:42 states it was evening, ie. the sabbath had already begun
(beginning
> > at
> > sundown) when Joseph asks for the body. However, burial was not allowed
on
> > the sabbath, showing the fictitiousness of the story.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Resurrection of Jesus
> > Who went to the tomb?
> > Matt - 2 Marys
> > Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
> > Luke - at least 5 women
> > John - Mary Magdalene
> > What was seen?
> > Matt - Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone
> > Mark - Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside
> > Luke - Stone already moved with two men standing inside
> > John - Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting
> > inside
> > after two earlier visits.
> > When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?
> > Matt - Towards dawn
> > Mark - Very early
> > Luke - At early dawn
> > John - Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived
at
> > the tomb).
> > What did man/men/angel/angels say?
> > Matt - Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee
> > Mark - As Matt
> > Luke - Jesus had risen
> > John - Asks why Mary is crying.
> > What do the women/woman do next?
> > Matt - They run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction
> > Mark - They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts
the
> > other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original
Mark
> > ended at 16:7)
> > Luke - They go and tell disciples
> > John - Mary meets Jesus and they talk.
> > What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?
> > Matt - Women on way from tomb
> > Luke - The two disciples on road to Emmaus
> > John - Mary Magdalene.
> > What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?
> > Matt - At least the time to reach Galilee
> > Luke - Clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear
> > that
> > Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the
> > same
> > day)
> > John - At least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the
> > Gospel,
> > but with the John 21 appendix the period was even longer as this has a
> > Galilean appearance
> > Acts - 40 days.
> >
> > An attempt to reconcile John's visit of just Mary Magdalene whilst still
> > dark with the Synoptics where there are several women and it is daytime,
> > is
> > by saying John's was an earlier one, i.e. the one in the Synoptics was a
> > second one. However this cannot be so as John has Mary Magdalene seeing
> > the
> > empty tomb (20:1) and in the Synoptics when the women go to the tomb
they
> > ask about who would roll the stone away (Mark 16:3). Mary Magdalene was
> > with
> > them (Mark 16:1) and if she had already been to the tomb, she would have
> > seen the stone moved away and the question would be irrelevant.
> > Furthermore, Luke makes any appearance at, or journey to Galilee
> > absolutely
> > impossible as it has everything happening in the area of Jerusalem with
> > the
> > disciples being told to stay there until Pentecost, and the conclusion
> > being
> > Jesus' ascension from nearby Bethany. This is made clear - in Luke the
> > first
> > appearance is to the two travelling to Emmaus (10 miles West of
Jerusalem)
> > and 24:13 states this was "that very day"; the two then go "that same
> > hour"
> > to the eleven in Jerusalem (24:33); Jesus then appears whilst they are
> > still
> > explaning what they had seen (24:36). Jesus then tells them to stay in
> > Jerusalem until Pentecost (24:49).
> > As Luke 24:51 has the ascension on the same day as the resurrection this
> > prevents any Galilean appearances by Jesus to the eleven as in Matt and
> > John.
> > Luke's account makes nonsense of Matt having Jesus tell the women to
> > instruct the disciples to go up to Galilee (Matt 28:10) if he was going
to
> > see them himself later that day (as in Luke and John), and furthermore
see
> > them in Jerusalem. Also, Luke makes it clear that the eleven were told
to
> > stay in Jerusalem from the day of the resurrection to Pentecost, but
Matt
> > has them travelling up to Galilee (28:16) as does John (21:1ff).
Important
> > to note is Mark 16:7, ie. that the women 'said nothing to anyone' - all
> > three Gospels contradict this by saying that they told the disciples.
> > Luke also has Jesus appearing to "the eleven" on the same day as the
> > resurrection (24:33-36), but John states Thomas was missing on this
> > appearance and it was a week later that Jesus appeared to all eleven -
> > with
> > Thomas then being present (20:24,26).
> >
> > Note: 1 Cor 15:3-8 lists the resurrection appearances and contradicts
the
> > above.
> >
> >
> >
> > The chronology of Paul's life.
> > Acts
> > (1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8).
> > (2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there 'several days' (9:20).
> > (3)After 'some time'*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the
> > apostles there (9:27).
> > (4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is
sent
> > to
> > Tarsus (9:30).
> > (5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit)
> > (11:30)
> > (6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)
> > (7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).
> >
> > Galatians.
> > (1)Paul is converted (1:16).
> > (2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17)
> > (3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James
> > there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days.
> > (4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21).
> > (5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1).
> > (6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11).
> > (7)No further information.
> > The 'some time' in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was;
> > different
> > translations render this 'some time passed' (Jerusalem), 'after a number
> > of
> > days' (Moffatt); the literal Greek is "'many' with the view of being
> > sufficient"; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this
> > with
> > the three years of Gal 1:18.
> > *It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to
> > Antioch from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal
> > 2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul
states
> > it
> > was only the second.
> > Paul's method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether
his
> > 14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his
> > conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after
his
> > conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of
> > 17
> > years after his conversion).
> > Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two
accounts,
> > e.g. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then
> > 22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10)
> > which makes Paul's comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by
> > the
> > churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia
> > (1:17-
> > 21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at
> > Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of
> > what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5
> > Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24
> >
> >
> >
> > Man does not die for his ancestors' sin - Deut 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, Ezek
> > 18:20
> > Man does die for his ancestors' sin - Ex 20:5, 34:6-7, 2 Sam 12:13-18,
Isa
> > 14:21, Rom 5:12,19, 1 Cor 15:22
> >
> >
> >
> > Elijah and Moses appear many centuries after they died - Mark 9:2-4
> > Only God is immortal - 1 Tim 6:15-16
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus to be buried for three days and nights - Matt 12:40
> > Jesus buried for one day and two nights - Mark 15:42,43, John 20:1
(These
> > texts show the burial did not take place until Friday night and the tomb
> > was
> > empty before Sunday morning). Jesus was therefore not in the tomb for
> > "three
> > days and three nights" - whether present-day or Jewish time-reckoning is
> > used.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus was the first person to rise from the dead - Acts 26:23, Rev 1:5
> > Jesus was not the first person to rise from the dead - 2 Kings 4:32,35,
> > Luke
> > 7:12-15, Matt 9:18,25, 11:5, 27:52, John 11:44
> >
> >
> >
> > The Holy Spirit given on Easter Sunday - John 20:19,22
> > The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost - Acts 2:1-4
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus warns disciples he is to leave them - John 16:5,7,28
> > Jesus assures disciples he will always be with them - Matt 28:20
> >
> >
> >
> > The Holy Spirit not given until Jesus' death - John 7:39
> > The Holy Spirit given before Jesus' birth - Luke 1:41,67
> >
> >
> >
> > Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7
> > Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18
> >
> >
> >
> > Women buy anointing spices for Jesus after the sabbath - Mark 16:1
> > Women buy anointing spices for Jesus before the sabbath - Luke 23:56
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul's vision.
> > Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul STOOD speechless, HEARING the voice
but
> > NOT SEEING anyone.
> > Acts 22:9 states they did NOT HEAR the voice.
> > Acts 26:14 states they all FELL to the ground and DID HEAR the voice.
> >
> >
> >
> > God is impartial towards people - Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Gal 2:8, Eph 6:9
> > God is partial towards people - Rom 8:29-30, 9:11-13, Matt 10:5-6,
> > 15:22-25,
> > Luke 1:30
> >
> >
> > Those without the law, will perish without it - Rom 2:12
> > Where there is no law, there can be no transgression - Rom 4:15
> >
> >
> > Salvation only available to a few who have been chosen - Matt 7:14,
22:14,
> > Luke 12:32, 13:24, John 6:37,65, 15:16,19, Rom 8:29, 9:11-23, Eph 1:4,
> > Salvation available to those who want it - Matt 7:7,8, 11:28, John 3:16,
> > 5:40, 7:37, Acts 2:21, Rev 3:20
> > NB. Prov 16:4 states God actually made the unsaved for 'the day of
> > trouble'
> > (ie. damnation). In contrast to texts that state Jesus died for the
> > elect/a
> > small number, there are others that confirm, or at least suggest
everyone
> > will be saved by Christ - John 1:29, 4:42, 1 Cor 15:29, Heb 2:9, 1 John
> > 4:14.
> >
> >
> >
> > Satan is free to act as he pleases - Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zech 3;1, Matt
4:1,
> > 1
> > Pet 5:8
> > The angels who rebelled against God are chained up - Jude 6
> >
> >
> >
> > James and John ask Jesus for special places in the kingdom - Mark
10:35-37
> > It is the mother of James and John who asks Jesus for special places for
> > them - Matt 20:21-22
> >
> >
> >
> > No one born of God sins - 1 John 3:9
> > Everyone sins - Rom 3:23, 1 John 1:8
> >
> >
> >
> > No one is righteous - Rom 3:10
> > There are righteous - James 5:16
> >
> >
> >
> > The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable - Matt
> > 12:32,
> > Mark 3:29
> > God forgives all sins - 1 John 1:7
> >
> >
> >
> > Love your enemies - Matt 5:44
> > Refuse to greet your enemies - 2 John 10: enemies are cursed by Paul -
Gal
> > 1:9: Paul asks that his enemies mutilate themselves - Gal 5:12
> >
> >
> >
> > Those who go into the grave will never arise - Job 7:7,9, 14:10,12
> > Those who go into the grave will arise - John 5:28-29, 11:24, 1 Cor
> > 15:12-18,20-23,52, Rev 20:4
> >
> >
> >
> > The dead are unconscious - Job 14:12, Ecc 9:5, Dan 12:2
> > The dead are conscious - Mark 9:4, Luke 16:22-23, Rev 6:9-10
> >
> >
> >
> > The earth will exist for ever - Ecc 1:4
> > The earth will be destroyed - 2 Pet 3:10
> >
> >
> >
> > No one has ever seen God - Ex 33:17,20, John 1:18, 1 Tim 6:15-16
> > People have seen God - Gen 32:30, Ex 24:9-10, 33:11,21- 23, Isa 6:5,
Deut
> > 5:24, Amos 9:1
> >
> >
> >
> > God is not responsible for confusion - 1 Cor 14:33
> > God is responsible for confusion - Isa 45:7
> >
> >
> >
> > All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23
> > Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34
> >
> >
> >
> > God can do anything - Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37
> > God is limited in what he can do - Judges 1:19, Mark 6:5-6
> >
> >
> >
> > God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
> > God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom
> > 9:18,
> > 2 Thess 2:11
> >
> >
> >
> > The returnees from Babylonian exile in 537/536 BCE.
> > 42,360 in Ezra 2:64, but 9,818 in Ezra 2:3-60 and 31,089 in Nehemiah
> > 7:7-65.
> >
> >
> >
> > God is not angry for long - Psa 30:5, 103:9, Micah 7:18
> > God is angry for a long time - Num 32:13, Rev 14:11, 20:10
> >
> >
> >
> > God never lies and hates lying - Ex 23:1, Num 23:19, Prov 12:22, Titus
1:2
> > God himself lies - 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22, 2 Thess 2:11
> >
> >
> >
> > God does not repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Num 23:19,
1
> > Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6
> > God does repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Gen 6:6-7, Ex
> > 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19,
> > 42:10, Ezek 24:14, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10
> >
> >
> >
> > The earth has no foundation - Job 26:7
> > The earth does have foundations - 1 Sam 2:8, Psa 104:5
> >
> >
> >
> > God feeds and cares for all life - Psa 145:15-16
> > God does not feed and care for all life - Deut 28:48, Isa 5:13, 8:21,
50:2
> >
> >
> >
> > God is warlike - Ex 15:3, Psa 24:8, Rev 19:11,13
> > Man should be peaceful as God is - Matt 5:9, John 14:27, Rom 15:33, 2
> > Thess
> > 3:16
> >
> >
> >
> > Graven images not to be made - Ex 20:4
> > Graven images are to be made - Ex 25:18
> >
> >
> >
> > The earth is God/Jesus' - Psa 24:1, 1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5
> > The earth is the devil's - John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4
> >
> >
> >
> > God dwells in light - Psa 104:1,2, 1 Tim 6:15-16, 1 John 1:5
> > God dwells in darkness - 1 Kings 8:12, 2 Chron 6:1, Psa 18:11, Psa
97:1-2
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus is God - John 1:1, John 20:28
> > Jesus is inferior/subordinate to God - John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:28
> >
> >
> >
> > The Synoptics have Jesus clearing the Temple at the end of his ministry
> > (Mark 11:15-17 & par) but John has this at the very beginning (2:13-16).
> > Also, John has Jesus travelling back and forth between Galilee and
> > Jerusalem
> > but the synoptics have him starting in Galilee & making the one journey
> > south to Jerusalem ending in his death.
> >
> >
> >
> > God is gracious, loving, merciful, good, forgiving, and perfect - Ex
34:6,
> > Deut 32:4, 2 Sam 22:31, Psa 86:5, 100:5, 106:1, 111:4,7, 136:1, 145:8-9,
> > Lam
> > 3:33, Joel 2:13, Hab 1:12-13, Mark 10:18, 1 John 4:8,16
> > God slaughters, is vengeful, does evil, defiles, destroys and creates
> > woes -
> > Ex 32:14, Num 31:1-18, Deut 2:30,34, 7:2,16, 20:10-20, 1 Sam 6:19, Job
> > 42:11, Isa 45:7, Jer 18:5,8,11, 26:3,13,19, 42:10-11, Lam 3:38, Ezek
> > 6:12-13, 20:25-26, Amos 3:6, Nahum 1:2, Jonah 3:10
> >
> >
> >
> > God sees everything and is omnipresent - Psa 11:4, Prov 15:3, Job 34:21,
> > Jer
> > 16:17, 23:24, Heb 4:13
> > God does not see everything and is not omnipresent - Gen 3:9-10, 11:5,
> > 18:20-21, Ex 3:8, 19:11, 18,20, Micah 1:3
> >
> >
> >
> > God did not dwell in the house (Temple) Solomon built - Acts 7:48
> > God did dwell in the house (Temple) that Solomon built - 1 Kings 8:13
> >
> >
> >
> > God is always near - Psa 46:1, 145:14, 18-19, James 4:8
> > God is not always near - 1 Sam 28:6, Psa 10:1, 22:1,2, Matt 27:46
> >
> >
> >
> > God creates all life out of the waters - Gen 1:20-21
> > God creates all life out of the earth - Gen 2:19
> >
> >
> >
> > The doers of the law will be justified - Rom 2:13
> > No one is justified by the law - Rom 3:20
> >
> >
> >
> > Disciples will be persecuted and martyred - Luke 21:16, Acts 7:59-60,
8:1,
> > Rev 6:9
> > Disciples will not be harmed - Luke 21:18
> >
> >
> >
> > Christians to obey authorities - Rom 13;1, 1 Pet 2:13- 14
> > Christians to obey God rather than authorities - Acts 5:29
> >
> >
> >
> > Disciples given power to cure all ills - Matt 10:1, Luke 9:1
> > Disciples could not cure all ills - Matt 17:18-20
> >
> >
> >
> > Centurion goes to Jesus for his servant to be healed - Matt 8:5-13
> > Centurion sends elders to Jesus to ask for his servant to be healed -
Luke
> > 7:1-10
> >
> >
> >
> > God's word and law abides for ever - Matt 5:18, 1 Pet 1:25
> > God's word and law has been cancelled - Eph 2:15, Col 2:14
> >
> >
> >
> > Governors are God's ministers for the good and protect the innocent -
Rom
> > 13:1,3, 1 Pet 2:13-14
> > The Governor Pontius Pilate has Jesus crucified - Mark 15:15, Luke
> > 23:11,24,25, John 19:1,6
> >
> >
> >
> > Christ was raised a spirit being - 1 Cor 15:44-45, 1 Pet 3:18
> > Christ was physically raised - Luke 24:39,42-43, John 20:26-27
> >
> >
> >
> > The coming kingdom of God will be visible - Daniel 2:44
> > The coming kingdom of God will not be visible - Luke 17:20-21
> >
> >
> >
> > God is spirit - John 4:24
> > God has feet - Psa 18:9, arms - Jer 27:5, wings - Psa 36:7, eyes - Deut
> > 11:12, Psa 34:15, a mouth - Isa 1:20, Deut 8:3, ears - 2 Chron 6:40, a
> > nose - Ex 15:8, a heart - Gen 6:6, legs - Gen 3:8
> >
> >
> >
> > The Bible teaches forgiveness - Matt 6:14-15, Rom 12:17-19, Eph 4:32,
Col
> > 3:13
> > The Bible teaches punishment and vengeance - Gen 9:6, Ex 21:23-25,29,
Lev
> > 24;16,23
> >
> >
> >
> > God is one - Deut 6:4
> > God is plural - Gen 1:26, 11:6,7, Isa 6:8
> >
> >
> >
> > Gen 6:4 refers to a race called the Nephilim. Later in Gen 7:11-24 there
> > is
> > the account of the Flood in which "every living thing" was killed (7:23)
> > except Noah and his family: however, in Num 13:33 the Nephilim still
> > exist.
> >
> >
> >
> > The families of Japheth, Ham and Shem all have their own languages - Gen
> > 10:5,20,31
> > There is only one language over the whole earth - Gen 11:1
> >
> >
> >
> > It is the Midianites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 37:36
> > it is the Ishmaelites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 39:1
> >
> >
> >
> > The Levites' service to be from age 30 to 50 - Num 3:3,23,30,35,39,43,47
> > The Levites' service to be from age 25 to 50 - Num 8:23
> >
> >
> >
> > Sisera killed whilst asleep - Jud 4:20-21
> > Sisera killed whilst standing and drinking milk - Jud 5:25-27
> >
> >
> >
> > God's attributes are unknowable - Job 11:7-9
> > God's attributes are knowable - Rom 1:20
> >
> >
> >
> > Beersheba given its name by Abraham - Gen 21:31-33
> > Beersheba given its name by Isaac - Gen 26:32-33
> >
> >
> >
> > Saul killed by an Amalekite - 2 Sam 1:5-10
> > Saul killed by Philistines - 2 Sam 21:22
> >
> >
> >
> > There were 3300 chief officers on Temple building - 1 Kings 5:16
> > There were 3600 chief officers on Temple building - 2 Chron 2:18
> >
> >
> >
> > There were 550 who had charge of the people - 1 Kings 9:23
> > There were 250 who had charge of the people - 2 Chron 8:10
> >
> >
> >
> > Jehoshaphat removed the high places - 2 Chron 17:1,6
> > Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places - 2 Chron 20:31,33
> >
> >
> >
> > Zedekiah was Jehoiachin's brother - 2 Chron 36:9-10
> > Zedekiah was Jehoiachin's uncle - 2 Kings 24:17
> >
> >
> >
> > The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign that God would heal
Hezekiah's
> > boil - 2 Kings 20:7-11
> > The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign God would defend the city
> > against the Assyrians -Isa 38:4-8
> >
> >
> >
> > The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke
> > 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1
> > God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10,
> > Matt
> > 27:57
> >
> >
> >
> > Satan entered Judas at the last supper - John 13:27
> > Satan entered Judas before the last supper - Luke 22:1-3
> >
> >
> >
> > Food offered to idols should be avoided - Acts 15:29
> > It is of no importance if food offered to idols is eaten - 1 Cor
8:1,4,7,8
> >
> >
> >
> > It was those who accused Jesus and were responsible for his death who
> > buried
> > him - Acts 13:27-29
> > It was Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple, who buried Jesus - Matt 27:59-60
> >
> >
> >
> > Christ is the only master - Matt 23:10
> > Employers are masters - Eph 6:5,9
> >
> >
> >
> > There were six generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - 1 Chron
> > 3:11-12
> > There were three generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - Matt
> > 1:8-9
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus' home was at Capernaum - Mark 1:9,24, 2:1
> > Jesus' home was in Judea - John 4:43-45
> > NB. In John, Jesus leaves Jerusalem in Judea and goes to Galilee because
> > "a
> > prophet has no honour in his own country" - therefore Judea must have
been
> > his home country - contradicting Mark.
> >
> >
> >
> > Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim 4:1, Heb
6:4-6,
> > Gal 3:1, Rev 2:5
> > God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa 31:23,
37:28,32,33,
> > John 10:27-29
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus never changes - Heb 13:8
> > Jesus does change - he dwelt with the Father (John 17:5), was born an
> > infant
> > with human weaknesses (Luke 2:7,52), became separated from God (Matt
> > 27:46),
> > then died (Matt 27:50), was then in Hades (Acts 2:31), was then raised
> > from
> > the dead in a glorified body (1 Cor 15:45) and ascended into heaven
where
> > he
> > mediates (1 John 2:1, 1 Tim 2:5)
> >
> >
> >
> > Moses was inarticulate - Ex 4:10
> > Moses was articulate - Acts 7:22
> >
> >
> >
> > Only God is to be called 'father' - Matt 23:9
> > Various people can be called 'father' - 1 Cor 10:1, Eph 6:1-4, 1 John
> > 2:13-14, Matt 15:4
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death, and he was heard - Heb 5:7
> > Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death and was not heard (ie. he was
> > executed the next day) - Luke 22:41,42,44,47,54, 23:33
> >
> >
> >
> > Prepare your defence if challenged for your faith - 1 Pet 3:15
> > Don't bother beforehand about what is to be said if challenged for your
> > faith - Mark 13:11
> >
> >
> >
> > God instructs man to live on vegetarian diet - Gen 1:29-30
> > Any food can be eaten - Gen 9:3, Acts 10:12-13, Rom 14:2
> >
> >
> >
> > Martyred believers cry out for vengeance - Rev 6:9-10
> > Believers should love/forgive their enemies - Matt 5:44, 6:15,18:32-35,
> > Luke
> > 6:27-28
> >
> >
> >
> > In Luke 10:38-42, Mary and Martha's home is between Samaria (mentioned
in
> > 9:57) and Jericho (mentioned in 18:35). It is after leaving Jericho
(that
> > was AFTER where they lived) that Jesus reaches Bethany (19:29). However,
> > according to John (11:18-20, 12:1-3), their home was in Bethany.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is wrong to judge others - Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Rom 2:1, 14:10
> > Others can be judged - Matt 23:13-33, John 8:44, Rom 1:27,29-32
> >
> >
> >
> > At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would have fed the crowd - Mark
> > 6:37
> > At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would not have fed the crowd -
> > John
> > 6:7
> >
> >
> >
> > God tells Zedekiah he will be captured but die peacefully - Jer 34:2-5
> > Zedekiah is capture, has his eyes taken out and is imprisoned to the day
> > he
> > dies - Jer 52:10-11
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesus refuses to disclose who he is, or allow others to do this - Matt
> > 12:15-16, 16:16-17,20, Mark 3:11-12, 8:29-30, Luke 9:20-21
> > Jesus tells the Samaritans (John 4:25-26), the Jews (John 5:39, 8:42,58,
> > 10:24-25,30), the crowds (John 6:40), and others (John 9:35-38), who he
is
> >
> > The Gospel not to be taken to the Samaritans - Matt 10:5-6
> > The Gospel taken to the Samaritans - John 4:4-41, Acts 8:5,14,15,25
> >
> > Women are to be obedient and submissive to men - 1 Cor 11:3,7-9,
14:33-35,
> > Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, 1 Pet 3:21
> > There are no sexes in Christ: both are "one" - Gal 3:28
> >
> > Let others see your good works - Matt 5:16
> > Do not let others see your good works - Matt 6:1,4
> >
> > Stephen says the Jews persecuted the prophets and killed those who
> > foretold
> > Christ's coming - Acts 7:52.
> >
> > Moses was a prophet who foretold Christ's coming (e.g. Acts 7:37) but
was
> > not killed - Deut 34:5,8; David was also a prophet (Acts 2:25,30), but
he
> > also died naturally.
>
>

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message
news:110g73glc3etue0@corp.supernews.com...
> Roy said:
>
>>> If you don't use your God-given brain what do you use?
>>>
>>> Spirit = mind.
>>
>>Which is precisely what Romans 12:1-2 is on about "... that you will be
> able
>>to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect
>>will.
>>
>>Cheers, mate.
>
> I fine example of giving precious things over to God is found in Gen 22.
> Just as God gave Isaac to Abraham, He gives us our brain.  That means that
> rightfully it's His to begin with and what He has given, He may ask for
> back.  It is well with my soul.
> Part of surrendering all to God, includes our very precious intellect and
> reasoning ability.  If we hold out on these things as something not to be
> given over to God's service, then they become god in our lives.  It's like
> saying "I surrender all Lord . . . except for this and this and that and
> this and You'd better keep Your hands off them cuz they're mine!".
>
> This leads up to the concept of trust.  How much do we trust God with our
> precious possessions?  As much as Abraham did?  And once it is clear that
> nothing is more important to us than God, our Isaac is returned:  in
> proper
> measure and place, as a tool for God' greater glory and not as something
> we
> glory in over Him.
>
> So are we to give up our reason?  Or are we to surrender it to His will?
> And at the end of the day, what will be our "precious"?  God, or some part
> of ourselves?
>
> I'll allow the spirit = mind for now, and I know it's a popular belief
> these
> days.  But for many, capitalizing "Spirit", means THE Spirit . . . or God.
> Remember that our mind is not God -- or else we haven't even got past the
> First Commandment!
>
> Yours in Christ,
>
> Griz
>
> sensi:
The mind......what exactly is it?

>
>
>
>

Roy said:

>> If you don't use your God-given brain what do you use?
>>
>> Spirit = mind.
>
>Which is precisely what Romans 12:1-2 is on about "... that you will be
able
>to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect
>will.
>
>Cheers, mate.

I fine example of giving precious things over to God is found in Gen 22.
Just as God gave Isaac to Abraham, He gives us our brain.  That means that
rightfully it's His to begin with and what He has given, He may ask for
back.  It is well with my soul.
Part of surrendering all to God, includes our very precious intellect and
reasoning ability.  If we hold out on these things as something not to be
given over to God's service, then they become god in our lives.  It's like
saying "I surrender all Lord . . . except for this and this and that and
this and You'd better keep Your hands off them cuz they're mine!".

This leads up to the concept of trust.  How much do we trust God with our
precious possessions?  As much as Abraham did?  And once it is clear that
nothing is more important to us than God, our Isaac is returned:  in proper
measure and place, as a tool for God' greater glory and not as something we
glory in over Him.

So are we to give up our reason?  Or are we to surrender it to His will?
And at the end of the day, what will be our "precious"?  God, or some part
of ourselves?

I'll allow the spirit = mind for now, and I know it's a popular belief these
days.  But for many, capitalizing "Spirit", means THE Spirit . . . or God.
Remember that our mind is not God -- or else we haven't even got past the
First Commandment!

Yours in Christ,

Griz

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message
news:110emnffcbmu0e7@corp.supernews.com...
> Mark said:
>
>>PLEASE EXPLAIN
>>
>>If the bible is without error ....
>>
>
> Well for starters, if you believe that  it is your own mind and intellect
> that discern God and assign Him parameters, then you have another God
> before
> Him, and will not fathom the depths of His word or see His face.  You
> cannot
> serve two masters, or have any other God before Him.
>
> Secondly, the Bible is a Spiritual work discerned not by feats of our
> intellect and reason.  As a Spiritual work, it magnifies whatever spirit
> is
> in our heart as we approach it.  If we are looking for errors and for
> reasons why it is not God's inerrent word, that is indicative of a dark
> spirit in us and the mysteries of God's word will remain hidden.  One will
> only find what is in their heart, reflected back at them.
> Many of your reflections back from Scripture are exceedingly dark Mark.
>
> I am not responding to your individual charges against God's word, because
> over the years we have been there and done that many MANY times (and the
> answers given you then, still hold true) . . . and it is clear that you
> have
> no interest in seeing anything save that which you have already decided in
> your own heart you will see.  The Christian walk is all about opening our
> eyes and overcoming the darkness that is inherent in our hearts by laying
> EVERYTHING (even our desire to intellectualize and rationalize everything
> to
> our personal satisfaction), at the foot of the cross. It is a function of
> just how much we are willing to trust God.  (The account of the Children
> of
> Israel approaching the city of Jericho is an excellent example of this,
> seen
> in the early chapters of Joshua . . . check out where they were in
> relation
> to the Jordan River when all of the males of fighting age were
> incapacitated
> by the covenant sign of circumcision)
> And once this is done (a circumcision of our hearts and minds), the
> mysteries of Gods' word will be revealed to us.  I know for many of us our
> intellect and minds can get in the way.  We elevate it to the status of
> God
> . . . even above God Almighty . . . thinking it is WE who discern and
> assign
> God to His proper function by feats of our mind and intellect.  Such
> things
> are exceedingly precious to us -- even as Isaac was precious to Abraham.
> Yet when God required it of him, Abraham obeyed:  and learned a profound
> lesson of God's provision.
> If you lay something down before God, it will by no means be counted as
> loss!
>
>
> Mark, my friend.
> So long as you are holding onto yourself and your own intellect and reason
> as your personal God above the Lord Almighty, you will neither see Him nor
> understand His word.  I would beseech you to leave those poisonous
> teachings
> of the Jesus Seminar behind and seek God in Spirit and in Truth.  Those
> are
> the only places where He may be found.
>
> Yours in Christ,
>
> Griz
>
>
Hello,
I don't see how you can take someone's asking this question(s) and then say
something nasty to the guy, exceedingly dark. How presumptuous of you to
assume he is exceedingly dark. When God is the only one that knows the
heart. You do as you always have, use anything to try to make yourself look
better and someone else look dark, evil and stupid. I don't know what Marks'
intent is in asking this, I am just reading through posts to see what is
new. They are valid a set of questions as anyone is entitled to ask. I
stopped at the name calling part, but then I knew better then you read your
post to begin with. Continuing to pray for you. Everyone is dark, all fall
short, and God's word has many explanations to show what appears to be
inerrancies, and those that can't be answered just ask God. Mark, if you
want to know all the answers may I suggest you go to a religious
biblical-university and search through the library, you will find your
answers there. There are perhaps many students that will search this out
with you?  Blessings to all.
Pastor E.G.

Roy Mock said:

>> Remember that our mind is not God -- or else we haven't even got past the
>> First Commandment!
>
>Have you not read -
>" COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER,  says the LORD: though your >sins are
>like scarlet. they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like
>crimson, they shall become like wool ..." (Isaiah 1:18-20) ?
>
>(Not to mention Romans 12: 2, 2 Corinthians 10:4 -5)

God caters to our reasoning abilities, once our hearts and minds are in
their proper relationship with Him.

But they are by no means an idol above Him.

Yours in Christ,

Griz

Cheers.

Alexia said:

>You do as you always have, use anything to try to make yourself look
>better and someone else look dark, evil and stupid.

The only one who can make us look like a fool Beth, is ourselves.  We each
'do it to ourselves' by our own words and actions.  Especially in these
forums, were one may compose a message and take the time to meditate and
pray over it before offering it up to the group.  We even have the power to
delete it without sending (as per Proverbs 17:27-28), should we find too
much of
ourselves in it and not enough of Christ.
That is why it is important that we speak of God's word to one another.  It
will not lead us to shame as our own words often do.
And what use is there for the economy of the perishing world -- where we are
driven to prove ourselves over others -- when God's eternal Kingdom lies
before us?

Yours in Him,

Griz

"Griz" wrote:

>>PLEASE EXPLAIN
>>If the bible is without error ....
>
> Secondly, the Bible is a Spiritual work discerned not by feats of our
> intellect and reason.

If you don't use your God-given brain what do you use?

Spirit = mind.


> I am not responding to your individual charges against God's word

Jesus is the Word of God (Logos) as in John 1:1. I have no charge against
the Logos ... but plenty against the fallible bible.

Griz, my friend, you obviously have no interest in seeing anything save that
which you have already decided in your own heart you will see. I would
beseech you to leave those poisonous teachings of the fundamentalist
paradigm and seek truth.  All truth is God's truth.  It is not limited to
the fallible bible.


--
The Bible ...[is] ... a collection of human responses to God (very human,
some of them all too human), which we are at liberty to use in the process
of formulating our own individual, unique response to God.  We don't do that
by imitating these responses slavishly.  I mean God, if he exists, doesn't
want innumerable clones of the apostle Paul.  He wants us to respond to him,
each of us in our own unique way.  And we can use the Bible to do that, but
we don't do it by obeying it slavishly and blindly. - Peter Cameron
"Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 195


> Yours in Christ,

Griz, my friend, your pious fundamentalist demons are manifesting again.

[no MSG]

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:4207fcd6$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Griz" wrote:
>
>>>PLEASE EXPLAIN
>>>If the bible is without error ....
>>
>> Secondly, the Bible is a Spiritual work discerned not by feats of our
>> intellect and reason.
>
> If you don't use your God-given brain what do you use?
>
> Spirit = mind.

Which is precisely what Romans 12:1-2 is on about "... that you will be able
to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect
will.

Cheers, mate.

"Griz" wrote:

>>> Spirit = mind.
>>Which is precisely what Romans 12:1-2 is on about "... that you will be
> able to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and
> perfect
>>will.
...
> Part of surrendering all to God, includes our very precious intellect and
> reasoning ability.

... only for fundamentalist who reject God's gift of thought, reasoning and
intelligence and refuse to use it.


> So are we to give up our reason?

NO!  You are supposed to use it!

Romans 12: 2 "Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let
God transform you into a new person by changing the way you THINK. Then
you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and
pleasing and perfect his will really is."

I Corinthians 10:4 -5 " ...for the weapons of our warfare are NOT WORLDLY
but have DIVINE POWER TO DESTROY STRONGHOLDS.  WE DESTROY ARGUMENTS AND
EVERY PROUD OBSTACLE TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, AND TAKE EVERY THOUGHT CAPTIVE
to obey Christ ..."

2 Ti.1:7 - For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but [spirit] of
power, and[spirit] of love, and [ spirit] of a SOUND MIND.


> Yours in Christ,

Your pious anti-intellectual fundamentalist demons are manifesting again,
Griz!

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message
news:110g73glc3etue0@corp.supernews.com...
> Roy said:
>
>>> If you don't use your God-given brain what do you use?
>>>
>>> Spirit = mind.
>>
>>Which is precisely what Romans 12:1-2 is on about "... that you will be
> able
>>to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect
>>will.
>>
>>Cheers, mate.
>
> I fine example of giving precious things over to God is found in Gen 22.
> Just as God gave Isaac to Abraham, He gives us our brain.  That means that
> rightfully it's His to begin with and what He has given, He may ask for
> back.  It is well with my soul.
> Part of surrendering all to God, includes our very precious intellect and
> reasoning ability.  If we hold out on these things as something not to be
> given over to God's service, then they become god in our lives.  It's like
> saying "I surrender all Lord . . . except for this and this and that and
> this and You'd better keep Your hands off them cuz they're mine!".
>
> This leads up to the concept of trust.  How much do we trust God with our
> precious possessions?  As much as Abraham did?  And once it is clear that
> nothing is more important to us than God, our Isaac is returned:  in
> proper
> measure and place, as a tool for God' greater glory and not as something
> we
> glory in over Him.
>
> So are we to give up our reason?  Or are we to surrender it to His will?
> And at the end of the day, what will be our "precious"?  God, or some part
> of ourselves?
>
> I'll allow the spirit = mind for now, and I know it's a popular belief
> these
> days.  But for many, capitalizing "Spirit", means THE Spirit . . . or God.
> Remember that our mind is not God -- or else we haven't even got past the
> First Commandment!

Have you not read -
" COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER,  says the LORD: though your sins are
like scarlet. they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like
crimson, they shall become like wool ..." (Isaiah 1:18-20) ?

(Not to mention Romans 12: 2, 2 Corinthians 10:4 -5)

Cheers.

Cheers.

"alexiastation" wrote:

> I don't know what Marks'  intent is in asking this, I am just reading
> through posts to > see what is new. They are valid a set of questions as
> anyone is entitled to ask.


My intent is to show that the bible is not (and nevber has been) the
inerrant "Word of God" because Jesus is the Logos (Word) of God and the
bible contains errors that are plainly visible for all to see.

My intent is to show that fundamentalists care more for the bible than they
do either God or His Christ.  The bible fades into insignificance compared
to God and His Christ.  Abraham had no bible but is the father of faith.

My intent is to show that one must use one's God-given brain to understand
the bible and attempt to read it through Jewish eyes.  It is not good enough
to approach the bible with Western assumptions and church dogma and read it
through that distorted lens.

My intent is to show that one needs a bit of a background in how the bible
was put together, translation difficulties, history, sociology, archeology,
literay forms, Jewish idioms, etc etc etc  in order to understand what the
bible says about God.  The Holy Spirit does not sufdenly give understanding
to anyone who reads the bible in the same manner that God does not give
knowledge on how to do brain surgery to a garbage collector.


--
The Bible ...[is] ... a collection of human responses to God (very human,
some of them all too human), which we are at liberty to use in the process
of formulating our own individual, unique response to God.  We don't do that
by imitating these responses slavishly.  I mean God, if he exists, doesn't
want innumerable clones of the apostle Paul.  He wants us to respond to him,
each of us in our own unique way.  And we can use the Bible to do that, but
we don't do it by obeying it slavishly and blindly. - Peter Cameron
"Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 195



>Mark, if you want to know all the answers may I suggest you go to a
>religious biblical-university and search through the library, you will find
>your answers there.

Er ... no.  No-one will ever know all the answers in this lifetime.  God is
bigger than one can image.  The content of the infinite God cannot be
contained by an finiote number of people.  Our total knowledge of God is
still small.  Lawrence encapsulated the best descripotion of God to date ...
God is.

A religious biblical-university is the LAST place one would go to find
truth.  They have an agenda and the agenda is not free thought and
passionate search for truth.  Their agenda is their particular religious
man-made dogma (though there are exceptions).

All truth is God's truth. All error ... including religious error ... is not
of God.



--
#################################################
My Testimony at
http://www.alt-christianlife.com/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm

***********************************************************

'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.

#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians at
all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################

"sensi" <sensi4sight@yahoo.com> >> sensi: groaned:
> The mind......what exactly is it?


SIGH.

Abby

"Diana" <abc@efg.com> wrote in message
news:m9bOd.862$ZR4.8@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
>
> "Abby" <abbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0PSdnVHrR9ALoZTfRVn-pw@bright.net...
>>
>> "sensi" <sensi4sight@yahoo.com> >> sensi: groaned:
>> > The mind......what exactly is it?
>>
>>
>> SIGH.
>>
>> Abby
>>
>>
> Once again you find a group you say because you don't like the arguing but
> yet you consistently come back here to spew your hate. Great Christian
> countenance you have there...NOT...

LOL!  Look who is talking!
Abby

"Diana" <abc@efg.com> wrote in message
news:m9bOd.862$ZR4.8@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
>
> "Abby" <abbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0PSdnVHrR9ALoZTfRVn-pw@bright.net...
>>
>> "sensi" <sensi4sight@yahoo.com> >> sensi: groaned:
>> > The mind......what exactly is it?
>>
>>
>> SIGH.
>>
>> Abby
>>
>>
> Once again you find a group you say because you don't like the arguing but
> yet you consistently come back here to spew your hate. Great Christian
> countenance you have there...NOT...

You oink louder than anyone here!

Abby

Roy Mock said:

>>>Have you not read -
>>>" COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER,  says the LORD: though >>>your sins
are
>>>like scarlet. they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like
>>>crimson, they shall become like wool ..." (Isaiah 1:18-20) ?
>>>
>>>(Not to mention Romans 12: 2, 2 Corinthians 10:4 -5)
>>
>> God caters to our reasoning abilities, once our hearts and minds are in
>> their proper relationship with Him.
>>
>> But they are by no means an idol above Him.
>
>You lost me there.
>
>Engaging our minds with His word under prayer is an outworking of
>relationship, two-way engagement - trusting our Father.

God has no requirement to make His ways known to us . . . yet He goes to
such amazing lengths in Scripture to present analogies and constructs that
our limited reasoning abilities can grasp.  But we are fools if we would
believe that our minds are what discerns God.  If our reasoning abilities
come before God in our hierarchy of things, then it is an idol above God and
we haven't proceeded past even the first Commandment of the Decalogue.

Yours in Christ,

Griz

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:4208573d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "alexiastation" wrote:
>
>> I don't know what Marks'  intent is in asking this, I am just reading
>> through posts to > see what is new. They are valid a set of questions as
>> anyone is entitled to ask.
>
>
> My intent is to show that the bible is not (and nevber has been) the
> inerrant "Word of God" because Jesus is the Logos (Word) of God and the
> bible contains errors that are plainly visible for all to see.
>
Hello Mark,
Well when your a student of a University you are told to believe that the
Bible is inerrant, well it isn't, and that is the truth. Depends on what
your looking for, how you apply it and what era your talking about, very
indepth don't you think? Is it really an error or the way we think or apply
it, is it our own lack of knowledge that makes it appear in error? Possibly
and probably.
And remember too, how much of it has been rearranged and changed through the
course of time. If you begin there it is a great journey and it will show
you many things. I don't think we will ever have all the words, the meanings
and the answers. Should we though? What if we did? Is it going to change our
actions(mankinds') our ways any more than what we already have before us?
Will it stop the murdering of the unborn or the crime? Will it stop the
worlds spiral toward hell? No. It is up to each of us to seek God and only
He knows each of our hearts individually, and His word is as individual to
us as we are in our relationships with Him.
What I meant was that the Word is from individuals, as individual as you and
I and all are from each other, God speaks to each of us in a way we alone
can understand. We(mankiind) are always seeking, always needing. We alone
can answer deep questions in our hearts with the HS to teach us. That is
true.
The bible is inerrant in some ways, to us anyway. Meaning that as I was
trying to say, each was written in a different time, by people who lived
different, most of the answers you need for these that you quoted -do have a
human error-mostly our own lack of knowledge-different descriptions- answer-
it was that each person had their own understanding, as individual as each
of us.
 For instance you go to the same movie I do and you see something totally
different out of it than I did. God is awesome- He can see each of us the
way our heart is and He alone can touch each place where it is needed.
DIVIRSITY-the key to biblical understanding. God can indeed send the HS to
do whatever He commnds. If he wanted to make you a surgeon right now, He
certainly could. God instead, and in my life, seems to help me along where
and when needed and has YET to ever fail to show me something I seek Him on,
it may not be the right time seemingly- my time or the way I would have ever
thought of it, sometimes answers to my questions don't come the same YEAR.
But He certainly answers them. His timing is perfect, simple,. complex and
right on. His answers are right for us, as He gives each of us individual
attention, in an individual way. Even a bible verse can mean something
different at that moment in ones life. How like God to make words that can
have depth like that. That can be applied to individual problems at
differing times. If you stick to it as a whole you can see a great picture,
as each part -an indepth one. Depends upon needs, knowledge, all as
individual as particles and cells in the universe. As dna is -so is the
bible. God is not errant and His word is not, and true that we are the ones
that need to know and apply it individually and on the fact that we have a
brain and can determine some things for ourselves that are needs for us at
that time, and we will not know all or be all that we should be, but God is
at large and in charge and we do need to realize that we can count on Him in
our own failure to understand.

> My intent is to show that fundamentalists care more for the bible than
> they do either God or His Christ.  The bible fades into insignificance
> compared to God and His Christ.  Abraham had no bible but is the father of
> faith.
>
******I can see that, fundamentalists are not the only ones my friend. The
Jewish are perhaps the most mis-lead, mostly the doctrins of men, that has
come from down through the ages. As the many religions have, God though is
not a religion. Anyone who says they have God figured out is a liar. Getting
one answer to God is like trying to find an end to pi..
We are all different and I for sure believe that God loves us all the same,
and I agree with you that we should use our brains to some extent but to
live totally on our own understanding is also to indeed lead us to no where!
God is not understandable to our earthly brains and His ways are not our
own. We whom love Him don't like it at all, we want to be in the "KNOW". But
we can't, because at this time we are seperated from the Father by our
earthly home and our own inadequacies.


> My intent is to show that one must use one's God-given brain to understand
> the bible and attempt to read it through Jewish eyes.  It is not good
> enough to approach the bible with Western assumptions and church dogma and
> read it through that distorted lens.
> ******Individual people, individual ways of our relationships with God and
> our daily lives. How we apply His word and His HS to our own complex
> heart.(western assumptions, true unfortunatly)

> My intent is to show that one needs a bit of a background in how the bible
> was put together, translation difficulties, history, sociology,
> archeology, literay forms, Jewish idioms, etc etc etc  in order to
> understand what the bible says about God.  The Holy Spirit does not
> sufdenly give understanding to anyone who reads the bible in the same
> manner that God does not give knowledge on how to do brain surgery to a
> garbage collector.
>
> **true, even if you didn't have a background, lived in the desert you can
> Still have faith and belief and knowledge of God, because He lives, within
> us all, if we listen to Him we love Him, if we shove Him away, He does not
> continue to strive with one who does not except Him.

> --
> The Bible ...[is] ... a collection of human responses to God (very human,
> some of them all too human), which we are at liberty to use in the process
> of formulating our own individual, unique response to God.  We don't do
> that
> by imitating these responses slavishly.  I mean God, if he exists, doesn't
> want innumerable clones of the apostle Paul.

 He wants us to respond to him,
> each of us in our own unique way.
*********I believe that He does. Also too, are His ways that we are told to
be like, in His word, His commandments are helpful, right, true and wise.
This too, is part of our relationship with God.

 And we can use the Bible to do that, but
> we don't do it by obeying it slavishly and blindly. - Peter Cameron
> "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 195
>
>
>
>>Mark, if you want to know all the answers may I suggest you go to a
>>religious biblical-university and search through the library, you will
>>find your answers there.
>
> Er ... no.  No-one will ever know all the answers in this lifetime.  God
> is bigger than one can image.  The content of the infinite God cannot be
> contained by an finiote number of people.  Our total knowledge of God is
> still small.  Lawrence encapsulated the best descripotion of God to date
> ... God is.
> *********I was suggesting this in responce to the questions you posted.
> The history is a key part in understanding the terms and definitions of
> things written in the bible. Understanding what a simple thing such as a
> LAMP STAND would seeminlgy be easy right, really? Go to the university and
> look up something simple, the books, maps and helps are great in finding
> things out about the bible and I would suggest it to anyone. The wealth of
> knowledge for this one book the bible is inexhaustable and would generally
> take a lifetime to learn, more than likely not even then. I find daily
> there is something new to learn as intricate, delicate and individual as
> the people we are, so too is His word. No, we will never have all the
> answers until the coming Kingdom. Praise God! Many of us can not wait for
> that. :)

> A religious biblical-university is the LAST place one would go to find
> truth.  They have an agenda and the agenda is not free thought and
> passionate search for truth.  Their agenda is their particular religious
> man-made dogma (though there are exceptions).
>
************Having been to diverse universities, I would agree, yet too,
they are half and half. I believe they each try to do the best they can to
educate and get you to seek answers for yourself, some are more strict, I am
a simple minded person, I see God as infinate and deep, and individual to
you, as we each are to Him, yet, simple enough He loves us ALL the same, not
one above the other. So ...is all right, all knowing,,,, all the best, the
one, the greatest>? Anyone on earth>? The top Scholar? The Pope? Uhh YOU<
ME? NO.... none but ONE -THE ONE. the rest of us just scrap along taking one
day at a time, to try in some humanly small way to understand, to seek, to
apply, but...above all, TO LOVE GOD. That is the core of being Human isn't
it, above all these is the greatest Command....Love. (Faith-a great Hope)


> All truth is God's truth. All error ... including religious error ... is
> not of God.
>
> *** God to the Jewish even, and for sure, is in ALL things, and of ALL
> things. The Jewish even encourage you to go out and learn of other beliefs
> and to seek answers in an individual way, but above all to Love God and
> all that surrounds us-the creator that made all things.
> Blessings to you and thank you for the thought provoking post.
Pastor E.G.
> --
> #################################################
> My Testimony at
> http://www.alt-christianlife.com/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm
>
> ***********************************************************
>
> 'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.
>
> #################################################
> ... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
> distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
> who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians
> at
> all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
> #################################################
>
>

Diana wrote:


> Why don't you read the word and get deep into it and realize
> that you
> need conviction over how you treat others. You forgive only the
> men
> who have done alot to you however I have done nothing to you as
> you
> started on me in defense of Vera. You can not find any thing
> that I
> have ever done to  you personally other than defend myself
> against
> your liable and slander. God have mercy on your pitiful soul

  Get over yourself fool.
Back into the pig pen you go.

PLONK

Abby

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:42096289@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "alexiastation" wrote:
>
>> Well when your a student of a University you are told to believe that the
>> Bible is inerrant
>
> Have never been told that at the universities I have attended.  The bible
> was treated as any other ancient text and subject to the same scholarly
> scrutiny.
> ______ It is when your attending a Religious University.
>
>> The bible is inerrant in some ways, to us anyway.
>
> The bible is only inerrant to fundamentalists who have not applied their
> God-given brains to the text in a scholarly manner.
>
> ***typo---above...too sentences became one ha. It is especially when you
> apply scholarly manners to it, but let me say this, a one can not attain
> true wisdom from God's word in entirety when you think of it only in a
> non-secular manner. If you have not the faith to believe what it says,
> might as well look at it as another novel or history book on your shelf.

>> For instance you go to the same movie I do and you see something totally
>> different out of it than I did.
>
> A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.  An
> error is an error even when the error is in the bible.
> *****Debatable as it is, and in universities you spend time doing this.
> Let me say here, the bible is as deep as you want to go, as shallow as you
> want to make it, as error free or full of errors as you want to make it.
> It is all in the views my friend, either you go looking for the answers or
> you don't. If there is an error and of course there is in the modern
> English texts of the bible, I know this to be true because I also study
> the true text that are available, yet, whom do you serve is the question I
> would have to ask anyone asking me about errors of God. They are not
> errors of God but only MAN.
>
>>> *** God to the Jewish even, and for sure, is in ALL things, and of ALL
>>> things. The Jewish even encourage you to go out and learn of other
>>> beliefs and to seek answers in an individual way, but above all to Love
>>> God and all that surrounds us-the creator that made all things.
>
> Yep!  Like St Augustine said "Love God and do as you please."
>****No, not do as you please, certainly the question here is do you LOVE
>Him?
Blessings,
Pastor E.G.

"Athanasius" <dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:tpoi01h34up08tcs1rnj5f5bq2esiaktpo@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:08:12 +1100, "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere>
> wrote:
>
>>Yep!  Like St Augustine said "Love God and do as you please."
>
> For if one truly loves God he will not in any way offend against God's
> will. This teaching is very deep and well known in the Church.
>
> :)
>
>
> Athanasius,servant.
> The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian
> Mission.
> Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia,
> 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
> http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
> dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it
> from the email address).
>
> "If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."
> St Athanasius.

Amen and very very very true!
Blessings to you,
Pastor E.G.

"Smiley" <smiley_b1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VOeOd.54$kX4.2125@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
> news:42096289@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
>> A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.
>> An error is an error even when the error is in the bible.
>
> Mark I asked you to post one of these so-called errors so that
> we can talk about it. you say that the Bible has to be approached
> the right way. you talk about your God given brain.
>
> Then lets go for it.
>
> God bless
>
> Smiley
>
>Now that sounds like a challenge that is gonna be fun :-) Good to see
>people using their brains on a NG for a change. All gloves on? Just
>joking...
Blessings,
Pastor E.G.

"Abby" <abbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0PSdnVHrR9ALoZTfRVn-pw@bright.net...
>
> "sensi" <sensi4sight@yahoo.com> >> sensi: groaned:
> > The mind......what exactly is it?
>
>
> SIGH.
>
> Abby
>
>
Once again you find a group you say because you don't like the arguing but
yet you consistently come back here to spew your hate. Great Christian
countenance you have there...NOT...

Smiley said:

>> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us
>
> He who forms the mountains, creates the wind,
>and reveals his thoughts to man (Amos 4:13 NIV)

He does . . . but He is under no requirement to do so.  God is not beholding
to us.

>>. . . yet He goes to
>> such amazing lengths in Scripture to present analogies and constructs
that
>> our limited reasoning abilities can grasp.  But we are fools if we would
>> believe that our minds are what discerns God.  If our reasoning abilities
>> come before God in our hierarchy of things, then it is an idol above God
>> and
>> we haven't proceeded past even the first Commandment of the Decalogue.
>>
>> Yours in Christ,
>>
>> Griz
>
>
>God bless
>Smiley

Yours in Christ,

Griz

"Abby" <abbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:QIqdnePpscz13ZTfRVn-1w@bright.net...
>
> "Diana" <abc@efg.com> wrote in message
> news:m9bOd.862$ZR4.8@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> >
> > "Abby" <abbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:0PSdnVHrR9ALoZTfRVn-pw@bright.net...
> >>
> >> "sensi" <sensi4sight@yahoo.com> >> sensi: groaned:
> >> > The mind......what exactly is it?
> >>
> >>
> >> SIGH.
> >>
> >> Abby
> >>
> >>
> > Once again you find a group you say because you don't like the arguing
but
> > yet you consistently come back here to spew your hate. Great Christian
> > countenance you have there...NOT...
>
> You oink louder than anyone here!
>
> Abby
>
Why don't you read the word and get deep into it and realize that you need
conviction over how you treat others. You forgive only the men who have done
alot to you however I have done nothing to you as you started on me in
defense of Vera. You can not find any thing that I have ever done to  you
personally other than defend myself against your liable and slander. God
have mercy on your pitiful soul

"Abby" <abbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XvudnVYhls8GxpTfRVn-jQ@bright.net...
> Diana wrote:
>
>
> > Why don't you read the word and get deep into it and realize
> > that you
> > need conviction over how you treat others. You forgive only the
> > men
> > who have done alot to you however I have done nothing to you as
> > you
> > started on me in defense of Vera. You can not find any thing
> > that I
> > have ever done to  you personally other than defend myself
> > against
> > your liable and slander. God have mercy on your pitiful soul
>
>   Get over yourself fool.
> Back into the pig pen you go.
>
> PLONK
>
> Abby
>
LOL you are too funny. Queen of the plonk. Here is Scripture for you to
twist some more to your own liking...

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother,
Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool,
shall be in danger of hell fire.

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message
news:110hitcnvphjf8@corp.supernews.com...
> Roy Mock said:
>
>>> Remember that our mind is not God -- or else we haven't even got past
>>> the
>>> First Commandment!
>>
>>Have you not read -
>>" COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER,  says the LORD: though your >sins are
>>like scarlet. they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like
>>crimson, they shall become like wool ..." (Isaiah 1:18-20) ?
>>
>>(Not to mention Romans 12: 2, 2 Corinthians 10:4 -5)
>
> God caters to our reasoning abilities, once our hearts and minds are in
> their proper relationship with Him.
>
> But they are by no means an idol above Him.

You lost me there.

Engaging our minds with His word under prayer is an outworking of
relationship, two-way engagement - trusting our Father.

Cheers,

"Griz" wrote:

> an idol above Him.


The bible is not an idol above God.

The bible cannot contain everything about God.

God matters more than the bible.


> Yours in Christ,

Your pious fiundamnentalist demons are manifesting again, Griz.

"Griz" wrote:


> The only one who can make us look like a fool Beth, is ourselves.

You've done that many a time. ROTFLMAO!


> Especially in these forums, were one may compose a message and take the
> time to > meditate and pray over it before offering it up to the group.

What pious bullshit!

Does that mean your posts are more holy than others?

Do you really think your posts contain nuggets of gold that everyone should
adhere to?  More like nuggets of fundamentalist crap.




> Yours in Him,

Him who???

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:35:15 +1100, "Smiley" <smiley_b1@hotmail.com>
wrote:


>> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us
>
> He who forms the mountains, creates the wind,
>and reveals his thoughts to man (Amos 4:13 NIV)

And a child shall lead them....


Athanasius,servant.
The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian Mission.
Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia, 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it from the email address).

"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."  St Athanasius.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:59:22 +1100, "Smiley" <smiley_b1@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>>
>>>> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us
>>>
>>> He who forms the mountains, creates the wind,
>>>and reveals his thoughts to man (Amos 4:13 NIV)
>>
>> And a child shall lead them....
>>
>
>?

I meant that griz considers himself a spiritual master of whom cannot
be questioned by lessor spiritual beings. In this post you showed that
even ones he considers as children in the faith can teach him lessons.
:)

Peace and grace

Athanasius,servant.
The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian Mission.
Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia, 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it from the email address).

"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."  St Athanasius.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:08:12 +1100, "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere>
wrote:

>Yep!  Like St Augustine said "Love God and do as you please."

For if one truly loves God he will not in any way offend against God's
will. This teaching is very deep and well known in the Church.

:)


Athanasius,servant.
The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian Mission.
Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia, 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it from the email address).

"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."  St Athanasius.

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message
news:110ik7nimlpffb2@corp.supernews.com...
> Roy Mock said:
>
>>>>Have you not read -
>>>>" COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER,  says the LORD: though >>>your sins
> are
>>>>like scarlet. they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like
>>>>crimson, they shall become like wool ..." (Isaiah 1:18-20) ?
>>>>
>>>>(Not to mention Romans 12: 2, 2 Corinthians 10:4 -5)
>>>
>>> God caters to our reasoning abilities, once our hearts and minds are in
>>> their proper relationship with Him.
>>>
>>> But they are by no means an idol above Him.
>>
>>You lost me there.
>>
>>Engaging our minds with His word under prayer is an outworking of
>>relationship, two-way engagement - trusting our Father.
>
> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us

 He who forms the mountains, creates the wind,
and reveals his thoughts to man (Amos 4:13 NIV)

>. . . yet He goes to
> such amazing lengths in Scripture to present analogies and constructs that
> our limited reasoning abilities can grasp.  But we are fools if we would
> believe that our minds are what discerns God.  If our reasoning abilities
> come before God in our hierarchy of things, then it is an idol above God
> and
> we haven't proceeded past even the first Commandment of the Decalogue.
>
> Yours in Christ,
>
> Griz


God bless
Smiley

"Athanasius" <dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:d1ni01df7tjfa5mfueupr3e0m9oj4loutj@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:35:15 +1100, "Smiley" <smiley_b1@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us
>>
>> He who forms the mountains, creates the wind,
>>and reveals his thoughts to man (Amos 4:13 NIV)
>
> And a child shall lead them....
>

?

God bless

Smiley

"Griz" wrote:

> If our reasoning abilities
> come before God in our hierarchy of things, then it is an idol above God
> and
> we haven't proceeded past even the first Commandment of the Decalogue.

If the Christ comes befiore God then we have ignored first Commandment of
the Decalogue.

Jn.14:28 "My FATHER (GOD) is GREATER than I (JESUS)."

1 Cor.11:3 "The HEAD of CHRIST is GOD."

Griz conveniently ignores these scriptures because they do not fit into his
demonic fundamentalist idol worship of the Christ.

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS."
Matthew 22:37-40

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
COMMANDMENTS, which is the MOST IMPORTANT?" "The MOST IMPORTANT ONE,"
answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God (GOD NOT THE
MESSIAH) the Lord is  one. Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all
your strength.' (Mark12:28-30)

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying,
"Teacher, WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he
answered, "You shall love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all
your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."  And he said to him, "You have
answered right; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." (Luke 10:25-28)

These are repeated THREE TIMES.  They are in each of the synoptic
gospels. The commandments do not mention anything about the finite
human Jesus of Nazareth, The Messiah ...or about being born again.

"alexiastation" wrote:

> Well when your a student of a University you are told to believe that the
> Bible is inerrant

Have never been told that at the universities I have attended.  The bible
was treated as any other ancient text and subject to the same scholarly
scrutiny.


> The bible is inerrant in some ways, to us anyway.

The bible is only inerrant to fundamentalists who have not applied their
God-given brains to the text in a scholarly manner.


> For instance you go to the same movie I do and you see something totally
> different out of it than I did.

A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.  An
error is an error even when the error is in the bible.


>> *** God to the Jewish even, and for sure, is in ALL things, and of ALL
>> things. The Jewish even encourage you to go out and learn of other
>> beliefs and to seek answers in an individual way, but above all to Love
>> God and all that surrounds us-the creator that made all things.

Yep!  Like St Augustine said "Love God and do as you please."

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:42096289@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

> A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.  An
> error is an error even when the error is in the bible.

Mark I asked you to post one of these so-called errors so that
we can talk about it. you say that the Bible has to be approached
the right way. you talk about your God given brain.

Then lets go for it.

God bless

Smiley

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:57:21 +1100, "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere>
wrote:

>"Smiley" wrote:
>
>>> A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.
>>> An error is an error even when the error is in the bible.
>>
>> Mark I asked you to post one of these so-called errors so that
>> we can talk about it. you say that the Bible has to be approached
>> the right way.
>
>No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
>Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11
>
>Only one may be correct as they are mutually exclusive.  Which one?
>
>There are thousands of others.
>

The Orthodox teach that there are a number of heavens.

First.

The heavens where the birds fly

Second.

The heaven of the stars.

Third.

The heaven where God dwells.

Fourth

Paradise where the saints and martyrs are which is before the throne
of God (the portico of heaven as it were)

Fifth

God's presence.

As regarding Elijah it is quite possible that he (and St john)
ascended to Paradise/heaven but not into the Holy City, nor the very
presence of God. It is believed Christ's words about His ascension
related to Himself within the Divine Essence and thus the dwelling
place of God's Throne and God Himself. This can be seen by the extra
statement that jesus said..."No one has ascended into heaven EXCEPT
the Son of Man who IS IN HEAVEN" jesus was standing on the earth at
that very moment Hem claimed to be also in heaven at the very same
time. (Only His Divinity explains this).

>From this perspective there is no discrepancy.

Peace and grace

Athanasius,servant.
The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian Mission.
Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia, 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it from the email address).

"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."  St Athanasius.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +1100, "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere>
wrote:

>You went and answered Smiley's problem.
>
>You are correct.
>
>Another problem .....
>
>Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated bread in the time of Abithar -
>Mark 2:25,26
>
>In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time of Ahimelech - 1 Sam
>21:1-6

Abithar was High Priest and thus the event happened during his time,
like we might say during the reign of King henry VIII.

Ahimelech (Abimelech) was the priest of Nomba. We recall that David
had fled from the presence of the King for three days and was in the
wilderness. The High Priest of course would have been with the Ark of
the Covenant.

1st samuel 21 does not use the term "at the time of' but rather David
came to Nomba to Abimelech the priest.....

I do not think there is a problem here Mark.

Peace and grace

Athanasius,servant.
The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian Mission.
Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia, 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it from the email address).

"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."  St Athanasius.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:46:34 +1100, "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere>
wrote:

>
>>>You went and answered Smiley's problem.
>...
>> I do not think there is a problem here Mark.
>
>The problem is that you are answering Smiley's questions for him.
>
>So a little more of a bigger problem ....


Sorry I thought you sent that last one to me.

I shall back out then unless asked for my opinion. :)

All is well.

Peace and grace

Athanasius,servant.
The Chapel of the Four Living Creatures Coptic Orthodox Australian Mission.
Ningi, Bribie Island, Caboolture,South East Queensland,Australia, 4511.Telephone: 0407 969827
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/a/Aus_Orthodox/
dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au (REMOVE is spam trap-please remove it from the email address).

"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against the world."  St Athanasius.

"Smiley" wrote:

>> A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.
>> An error is an error even when the error is in the bible.
>
> Mark I asked you to post one of these so-called errors so that
> we can talk about it. you say that the Bible has to be approached
> the right way.

No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11

Only one may be correct as they are mutually exclusive.  Which one?

There are thousands of others.

"alexiastation" wrote:


>>> Well when your a student of a University you are told to believe that
>>> the Bible is inerrant
>>
>> Have never been told that at the universities I have attended.  The bible
>> was treated as any other ancient text and subject to the same scholarly
>> scrutiny.
> ______ It is when your attending a Religious University.

That I'd believe! ... Bob Jones University and such.


>> A different point of view is not related to tyhe problem of inerrancy.
>> An error is an error even when the error is in the bible.
>> *****Debatable as it is, and in universities you spend time doing this.
>> Let me say here, the bible is as deep as you want to go, as shallow as
>> you want to make it, as error free or full of errors as you want to make
>> it. It is all in the views my friend, either you go looking for the
>> answers or you don't. If there is an error and of course there is in the
>> modern English texts of the bible, I know this to be true because I also
>> study the true text that are available, yet, whom do you serve is the
>> question I would have to ask anyone asking me about errors of God. They
>> are not errors of God but only MAN.

Yep!  The problem is not the errors in the bible.  The problem is that some
care more for the bible than for God.  The bible points to God.  God does
not point to the bible. God is more important than the bible.

"alexiastation" wrote:

>>>Yep!  Like St Augustine said "Love God and do as you please."
>>
>> For if one truly loves God he will not in any way offend against God's
>> will. This teaching is very deep and well known in the Church.
>
> Amen and very very very true!


This is what I mean.  The primary focus is on God and not on His Christ nor
on the bible.  The Christ and the bible point to God who is supreme above
everything else.

Jn.14:28 "My FATHER (GOD) is GREATER than I (JESUS)."

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS." -
Matthew 22:37-40

"Griz" wrote:

>>> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us
>>
>> He who forms the mountains, creates the wind,
>>and reveals his thoughts to man (Amos 4:13 NIV)
>
> He does . . . but He is under no requirement to do so.  God is not
> beholding
> to us.

... nor to fundamentalist man-made doctrine.


> Yours in Christ,

Your pious fundamentalist demons are manifesting again, Griz.

"Athanasius" wrote:

>>No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
>>Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11
>>
>>Only one may be correct as they are mutually exclusive.  Which one?
>>
>>There are thousands of others.
>
> The Orthodox teach that there are a number of heavens.


You went and answered Smiley's problem.

You are correct.

Another problem .....

Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated bread in the time of Abithar -
Mark 2:25,26

In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time of Ahimelech - 1 Sam
21:1-6

"Athanasius" wrote:

>>You went and answered Smiley's problem.
...
> I do not think there is a problem here Mark.

The problem is that you are answering Smiley's questions for him.

So a little more of a bigger problem ....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Resurrection of Jesus
Who went to the tomb?
Matt - 2 Marys
Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
Luke - at least 5 women
John - Mary Magdalene
What was seen?
Matt - Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone
Mark - Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside
Luke - Stone already moved with two men standing inside
John - Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting inside
after two earlier visits.
When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?
Matt - Towards dawn
Mark - Very early
Luke - At early dawn
John - Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at
the tomb).
What did man/men/angel/angels say?
Matt - Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee
Mark - As Matt
Luke - Jesus had risen
John - Asks why Mary is crying.
What do the women/woman do next?
Matt - They run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction
Mark - They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts the
other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark
ended at 16:7)
Luke - They go and tell disciples
John - Mary meets Jesus and they talk.
What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?
Matt - Women on way from tomb
Luke - The two disciples on road to Emmaus
John - Mary Magdalene.
What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?
Matt - At least the time to reach Galilee
Luke - Clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear that
Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the same
day)
John - At least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the Gospel,
but with the John 21 appendix the period was even longer as this has a
Galilean appearance
Acts - 40 days.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The chronology of Paul's life.
Acts
(1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8).
(2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there 'several days' (9:20).
(3)After 'some time'*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the
apostles there (9:27).
(4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is sent to
Tarsus (9:30).
(5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit)
(11:30)
(6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)
(7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).

Galatians.
(1)Paul is converted (1:16).
(2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17)
(3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James
there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days.
(4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21).
(5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1).
(6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11).
(7)No further information.
The 'some time' in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was; different
translations render this 'some time passed' (Jerusalem), 'after a number of
days' (Moffatt); the literal Greek is "'many' with the view of being
sufficient"; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this with
the three years of Gal 1:18.
*It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to
Antioch from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal
2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul states it
was only the second.
Paul's method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether his
14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his
conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after his
conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of 17
years after his conversion).
Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two accounts,
e.g. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then
22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10)
which makes Paul's comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by the
churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia (1:17-
21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at
Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of
what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Paul's vision.
Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul STOOD speechless, HEARING the voice but
NOT SEEING anyone.
Acts 22:9 states they did NOT HEAR the voice.
Acts 26:14 states they all FELL to the ground and DID HEAR the voice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Athanasius" <dcn_athanasius@REMOVEyahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:krcj01tuo3h6dkkvdllmn8dmcoqk54bbka@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:46:34 +1100, "Mark T" <what'sth@overthere>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>>You went and answered Smiley's problem.
>>...
>>> I do not think there is a problem here Mark.
>>
>>The problem is that you are answering Smiley's questions for him.
>>
>>So a little more of a bigger problem ....
>
>
> Sorry I thought you sent that last one to me.
>
> I shall back out then unless asked for my opinion. :)
>
> All is well.


My vote is for Athanasius' opinion whether he's asked for it or not :-)

--
                                                               *
Shalom!   Rowland Croucher
                                                           *       *
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/                               *
(14300+ articles, 3100 clean jokes/stories, 1.5 m. hits/month)
Internet Evangelism Conference    http://ie-21stcentury.com/
                                                              *

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message
news:110ik7nimlpffb2@corp.supernews.com...
> Roy Mock said:
>
>>>>Have you not read -
>>>>" COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER,  says the LORD: though >>>your sins
> are
>>>>like scarlet. they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like
>>>>crimson, they shall become like wool ..." (Isaiah 1:18-20) ?
>>>>
>>>>(Not to mention Romans 12: 2, 2 Corinthians 10:4 -5)
>>>
>>> God caters to our reasoning abilities, once our hearts and minds are in
>>> their proper relationship with Him.
>>>
>>> But they are by no means an idol above Him.
>>
>>You lost me there.
>>
>>Engaging our minds with His word under prayer is an outworking of
>>relationship, two-way engagement - trusting our Father.
>
> God has no requirement to make His ways known to us . . . yet He goes to
> such amazing lengths in Scripture to present analogies and constructs that
> our limited reasoning abilities can grasp.

That makes nonsense of Romans 1:18-20 and Hebrews 1:1-4.

> But we are fools if we would
> believe that our minds are what discerns God.  If our reasoning abilities
> come before God in our hierarchy of things, then it is an idol above God
> and
> we haven't proceeded past even the first Commandment of the Decalogue.

That makes nonsense of Romans 10:4.

Cheers.

"Athanasius" wrote:

>>>>You went and answered Smiley's problem.
>>> I do not think there is a problem here Mark.
>>The problem is that you are answering Smiley's questions for him.
>
> Sorry I thought you sent that last one to me.

I forgive you.

70 times 7 minus 1 ...for today ...and counting.


> I shall back out then unless asked for my opinion. :)

Answer after he has had an attempt.

Sorry for the delay I have a business to run.
I would have got to the other two Athanasius got to but he was to
fast for me.

I am not a fast typist so you have to bare with me.

"Mark T" <what'sth@overthere> wrote in message
news:4209b1b8@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Athanasius" wrote:
>
>>>You went and answered Smiley's problem.
> ...
>> I do not think there is a problem here Mark.
>
> The problem is that you are answering Smiley's questions for him.
>
> So a little more of a bigger problem ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I thought I said one at a time.
you have 4 writers each writing to a differant group
of people. One to Jews, One to gentiles and one to a roman.
I can't remember who John was writing to.
Matt and Luke, the schollers say are written
from Mark and 'Q' (we don't have a copy of 'Q' so I don't
know why thay say this). as I was saying. each book was
written to differant people groups. each auther wanted to tell the
story that god had layed on there heart. so infomation that
was not needed to tell the mesage was not used. this does
not mean there is an error. it means that they had something
differant in mind to pass on to their readers.

I don't have time to go into a full exagetical study to point out
why each one is differant.

you can see this sort of thing still hapens today. As Athanasius
says about the movie. each go's in to see the same movie.
each will focus on differant parts of the movie. I assume that
all the Aussie's on this NG would have seen "The Castle".
everybody that has will relate the story differant if they
talked about it to someone that has not seen it. does this
mean that the story told by anybody wrong. I don't think
so. When I was at BCV we made it almost conpolsery
to watch for international students so they could try
to get an understanding of aussie culture, an aussie had
to sit with them and explane it to them the first time that
they saw it. whoever sat with them at the time told it
differant as to someone else. does that mean that they
were wrong? No. thay just had a differant focal point.

>
> The Resurrection of Jesus
> Who went to the tomb?
> Matt - 2 Marys
> Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
> Luke - at least 5 women
> John - Mary Magdalene
> What was seen?
> Matt - Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone
> Mark - Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside
> Luke - Stone already moved with two men standing inside
> John - Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting
> inside
> after two earlier visits.
> When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?
> Matt - Towards dawn
> Mark - Very early
> Luke - At early dawn
> John - Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at
> the tomb).
> What did man/men/angel/angels say?
> Matt - Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee
> Mark - As Matt
> Luke - Jesus had risen
> John - Asks why Mary is crying.
> What do the women/woman do next?
> Matt - They run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction
> Mark - They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts the
> other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark
> ended at 16:7)
> Luke - They go and tell disciples
> John - Mary meets Jesus and they talk.
> What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?
> Matt - Women on way from tomb
> Luke - The two disciples on road to Emmaus
> John - Mary Magdalene.
> What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?
> Matt - At least the time to reach Galilee
> Luke - Clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear
> that
> Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the
> same
> day)
> John - At least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the
> Gospel,
> but with the John 21 appendix the period was even longer as this has a
> Galilean appearance
> Acts - 40 days.


God bless

Smiley.